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RFC Meeting: triage meeting (2016-05-25, #wikimedia-office)
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Hosted by daniel on May 25 2016, 9:00 PM - 10:00 PM.

Description

  • Location: #wikimedia-office IRC channel
  • Meeting type: TBD
  • Time: 2016-05-25, Wednesday 21:00 UTC (2pm PDT, 23:00 CEST)
  • Agenda:
    • Triage discussion, where we work through issues on the TechCom-RFC board. More prep+discussion may happen at Conpherence {Z425}
Architecture meetings
13:00 PT ArchCom Planning Meetingsupcomingall since 2016-03-30
14:00 PT ArchCom-RFC Meetingsupcomingall since 2015-09-09

Recurring Event

Event Series
This event is an instance of E66: ArchCom RFC Meeting Wxx: <topic TBD> (<see "Starts" field>, #wikimedia-office), and repeats every week.

Event Timeline

Next week. we're planning on having a triage of the TechCom-RFC board. I'll document more later.

RobLa-WMF renamed this event from RFC Meeting: <topic TBD> (<see "Starts" field>, #wikimedia-office) to RFC Meeting: triage meeting (2016-05-25, #wikimedia-office).May 24 2016, 11:35 PM
RobLa-WMF updated the event description. (Show Details)

Note: I've set up a Phabricator Conpherence room at Z362, which we can use as a slightly more asynchronous discussion forum for triaging items on the TechCom-RFC board.

A very crude semi-automated list of tasks in the Backlog column by priority:

Needs Triage

T128602: Create and deploy an extension that implements an authenticated key-value store. - (author: @Dbrant)
T120380: RFC: Allow JSON values to be included in the API results - (author: @Yurik)
T119050: Parametric JSON builder - (author: @Yurik)
T117550: [RFC] Content bundler - (author: @MarkAHershberger)
T114640: make Parser::getTargetLanguage aware of multilingual wikis - (author: @daniel)
T114454: [RFC] Visual Templates: Authoring templates with Visual Editor - (author: @cscott)
T114432: [RFC] Heredoc arguments for templates (aka "hygienic" or "long" arguments) - (author: @cscott)
T114421: [RFC] Optional Travis integration for Jenkins - (author: @cscott)
T114394: RFC: PageLookup service and PageRecord object - (author: @daniel)
T114251: [RFC] Magic Infobox implementation - (author: @hoo)
T99268: RfC: Create a proper command-line runner for MediaWiki maintenance tasks - (author: @ori)
T96384: Integrate file revisions with description page history - (author: @daniel)
T95654: RFC: Business Layer Architecture on budget - (author: @Yurik)
T95144: MediaWiki RFC: Exposure of user IP addresses - (author: @MZMcBride)
T91137: RFC: Support a branching content history model - (author: @awight)
T89890: RFC: Service split along public vs private line - (author: @RobLa-WMF)
T89889: RFC: Service split along presentation vs data manipulation line - (author: @RobLa-WMF)
T88301: RFC: Clean frontend - backend separation; make all frontends API consumers - (author: @GWicke)
T1351: RFC: Update our code to use RDFa 1.1 instead of RDFa 1.0 - (author: @tstarling)
T351: RfC: Square bounding boxes - (author: @Qgil)

High

T129842: Launch the Wikimedia Code Review Working Group - (author: @Aklapper)
T119043: Graph/Graphoid/Kartographer - data storage architecture - (author: @Yurik)
T105638: RFC: Streamlining Composer usage - (author: @JanZerebecki)
T96903: Identify and prioritize architectural challenges - (author: @GWicke)
T383: RfC: Data mapper - (author: @Qgil)
T382: RfC: Server-side Javascript error logging - (author: @Qgil)

Normal

T130663: WIP RFC: Reference API requirements and options - (author: @GWicke)
T124792: RFC: Service Locator for MediaWiki core - (author: @daniel)
T123606: RFC: Implement ArchCom-affiliated working groups (process inspired by Rust's "subteams") - (author: @GWicke)
T120414: RFC: MediaWiki should provide a pluggable registry for editor interfaces - (author: @Jdforrester-WMF)
T107595: [RFC] Multi-Content Revisions - (author: @daniel)
T106099: RFC: Page composition using service workers and server-side JS fall-back - (author: @GWicke)
T88596: Improving extension management - (author: @daniel)
T75953: RFC: MediaWiki HTTPS policy - (author: @csteipp)
T16950: [Epic] Support global preferences on Wikimedia wikis - (author: @bzimport)
T484: RfC: Scoped language converter - (author: @Qgil)
T468: RfC: CentralNotice backend improvements - (author: @Qgil)
T385: RfC: Dismissable notices - (author: @Qgil)
T384: RfC: Dependency Injection for MediaWiki core - (author: @Qgil)
T380: RfC: SOA Authentication - (author: @Qgil)
T356: RfC: Standardized thumbnails sizes - (author: @Qgil)
T355: Reducing size of regular/original images as well as thumbnails? - (author: @flimport)
T353: RFC: Vertical writing support - (author: @Qgil)
T347: RfC: CentralNotice Caching Overhaul - Frontend Proxy - (author: @Qgil)

Low

T114457: [RFC] Use `npm install mediawiki-express` as basis for all-in-one install of MediaWiki+services - (author: @cscott)
T64559: Redesign Special:Preferences (tracking) - (author: @MZMcBride)
T34695: Implement, Review and Deploy Wikicaptcha - (author: @bzimport)
T1352: RFC: Support for user-specific page lists in core - (author: @tstarling)
T589: RFC: image and oldimage tables - (author: @Qgil)
T487: RfC: Associated namespaces - (author: @Qgil)
T388: Graphical configuration interface - (author: @Qgil)

I've copied the list from the previous comment (E187#2129) to https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Architecture_meetings/RFC_triage_2016-05-25. The page will be the agenda for today's meeting (please, play nice!)

Meeting summary
People present (lines said)

robla (58)
cscott (43)
TimStarling (33)
stashbot (23)
gwicke (15)
Scott_WUaS (5)
wm-labs-meetbot (3)
MaxSem (2)
dapatrick (2)
Krinkle (2)
SMalyshev (1)

Full log

121:00:44 <robla> #startmeeting E187 ArchCom-RFC triage meeting
221:00:44 <wm-labs-meetbot> Meeting started Wed May 25 21:00:44 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is robla. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
321:00:44 <wm-labs-meetbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
421:00:44 <wm-labs-meetbot> The meeting name has been set to 'e187_archcom_rfc_triage_meeting'
521:01:33 <robla> #topic E187 ArchCom-RFC meeting - Please note: Channel is logged and publicly posted (DO NOT REMOVE THIS NOTE) | Logs: http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/%23wikimedia-office/
621:02:04 <robla> hi folks!
721:02:44 <Scott_WUaS> Hi
821:03:07 <Scott_WUaS> :)
921:04:45 <robla> #link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Architecture_meetings/RFC_triage_2016-05-25
1021:05:16 <TimStarling> is the idea to assign priorities?
1121:05:38 <robla> TimStarling: yeah, I think there's a couple of things I'd like to accomplish:
1221:05:55 <robla> 1. Assign priorities for the "Backlog" items that say "need triage"
1321:06:07 <robla> 2. Pick a good candidate for next week's IRC meeting
1421:06:22 <robla> so....let's start with the top of the list I just linked to:
1521:06:35 <robla> T128602
1621:06:35 <stashbot> T128602: Create and deploy an extension that implements an authenticated key-value store. - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T128602
1721:07:45 <robla> TimStarling: gwicke : Krinkle : is T128602 one that we just discussed in our meeting in the last hour today?
1821:07:45 <stashbot> T128602: Create and deploy an extension that implements an authenticated key-value store. - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T128602
1921:08:00 <TimStarling> don't think so
2021:08:33 * gwicke does not think so either
2121:08:56 <TimStarling> all the discussion was in march apparently
2221:09:34 <TimStarling> is brion here?
2321:09:52 <TimStarling> or tgr, Krenair, dbrant
2421:11:01 <robla> perhaps we can set it to "normal" or "low" priority, and wait for objection?
2521:11:02 <TimStarling> I think this RFC would not be controversial if it were discussed
2621:11:14 <TimStarling> yeah, low priority
2721:11:46 <TimStarling> it needs a committed client, once it has one of those, the priority can be higher
2821:11:54 <robla> k....next on the list: T120380
2921:11:54 <stashbot> T120380: RFC: Allow JSON values to be included in the API results - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T120380
3021:12:55 <MaxSem> I'll summon yurik
3121:13:16 <MaxSem> ...and he's not online :P
3221:13:42 <robla> ok....normal? low? high?
3321:14:18 <TimStarling> I think normal? there is conflict, which probably makes it more our responsibility than the implementor's
3421:14:42 <TimStarling> anomie seems to be dead against it
3521:14:44 <robla> normal it is
3621:15:17 <robla> ok, next up: T119050
3721:15:17 <stashbot> T119050: Parametric JSON builder - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T119050
3821:15:21 <robla> same story with that one?
3921:16:11 * robla prepares to say "yes" and move on
4021:16:47 <robla> ok.... normal for 119050. Next up: T117550
4121:16:48 <stashbot> T117550: [RFC] Content bundler - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T117550
4221:17:06 <robla> that one is hexmode 's. Is he around?
4321:18:44 <TimStarling> can you remind me what the criteria are for choosing the priority?
4421:19:35 <robla> TimStarling: good point. I'm thinking priority should have a bit of a temporal element to it for our purposes
4521:19:58 <TimStarling> something which needs to be discussed soon?
4621:20:37 <TimStarling> I think this is low priority
4721:21:02 <robla> yeah, so basically we should say this: "High" means "let's dedicate a meeting in the next 1-3 months (if not next week)
4821:21:14 <TimStarling> on the basis that it may be superseded by shadow namespaces, and nobody is really pushing for it
4921:21:29 <robla> "Medium" means "we really should resolve this by the end of the calendar year"
5021:21:41 <TimStarling> we can discuss whether the requirements were met after shadow namespaces is done
5121:22:36 <robla> ok...so, 117550 we can say is "low" priority, pending shadow namespaces
5221:22:57 <robla> Next up: T114640
5321:22:58 <stashbot> T114640: RFC: make Parser::getTargetLanguage aware of multilingual wikis - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T114640
5421:22:58 <gwicke> there is also a connection to OCG's bundler stuff
5521:23:57 <TimStarling> high? seeing as daniel keeps talking about it, and cscott is promising to prototype it (as of a month ago)
5621:24:28 * cscott delurks
5721:24:53 * robla waves at cscott
5821:25:28 <robla> high priority for 114640 then? Sounds good to me
5921:25:34 <robla> next up....
6021:25:37 <cscott> oh, right, the {{#lang}} thing. Yeah, I could totally whip up a prototype for that....
6121:25:43 <TimStarling> cscott: we are choosing priorities for RFCs, where priority has some kind of relationship to meeting scheduling
6221:26:05 <cscott> one way or another it would be good to straighten out this whole "user interface language" thing.
6321:26:23 <gwicke> I'm starting to think that we generally need to come up with a high-level strategy for how multi-lingual content should interact with caching & parsing
6421:26:24 <TimStarling> so high = a relatively high chance of being scheduled in the next few months
6521:26:36 <cscott> sure, just give me, say, 2 weeks notice before we schedule 114640 for discussion and i ought to be able to whip up a prototype to discuss.
6621:26:39 <gwicke> these RFCs that focus on a part of the problem seem to be too narrow
6721:27:04 <gwicke> we have had that come up repeatedly in the last weeks
6821:27:13 <TimStarling> cscott: do you have any RFCs you would like to see discussed soon, e.g. next week?
6921:27:14 <cscott> gwicke: sure, the point of the prototype is mostly to learn-by-doing and understand the problem better. in my case at least.
7021:27:18 <TimStarling> next week's slot is empty
7121:27:40 <cscott> TimStarling: i won't be able to attend the meeting next week, alas.
7221:27:45 <cscott> i will be in bermuda
7321:27:54 <TimStarling> poor you
7421:27:55 <cscott> on a big boat
7521:28:08 <TimStarling> ;.(
7621:28:41 <robla> next week's meeting: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/E198
7721:29:14 <robla> (it's boilerplate right now....let's figure out a candidate for next week)
7821:29:51 <cscott> gwicke: without going too off-topic for your scheduling meeting, i agree that there are large issues related to how commons and wikidata handle multilingual content... and how they mix UX (via templates) and "content".
7921:30:11 <robla> anyway, it looks like 114640 (or any of cscott's) are bad choices. We'll set T114640 to high, and maybe move on
8021:30:11 <stashbot> T114640: RFC: make Parser::getTargetLanguage aware of multilingual wikis - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T114640
8121:30:14 <gwicke> cscott: the elephant in the room is caching & fragmentation
8221:30:47 <gwicke> currently, none of the proposals seem to address that seriously
8321:30:49 <cscott> yeah, it may be worth trying to build new tools that let commons/wikidata/etc construct UX in a caching-friendly way.
8421:31:37 <robla> cscott: next up: T114454
8521:31:38 <stashbot> T114454: [RFC] Visual Templates: Authoring templates with Visual Editor - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T114454
8621:31:38 <cscott> some sort of template system that lives between the existing handlebars templates and the existing wikitext templates, perhaps.
8721:31:45 <cscott> oh, speak of the devil! ;)
8821:32:19 <robla> cscott: we're using this as the list, and you're name is on there a lot :-) https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Architecture_meetings/RFC_triage_2016-05-25
8921:32:42 <cscott> here maybe i'll take gwicke's point and say it would be good from an RFC perspective to have a higher-level discussion about templates and components and caching.
9021:32:57 <TimStarling> pretty obvious who the author is when it talks about templates being "hygenic by default"
9121:33:29 <cscott> oh, i thought i'd scrubbed the word "hygenic" from all my proposals
9221:33:38 <robla> :-)
9321:34:03 <TimStarling> I think this is low? pretty old and not recently discussed in the parsing team
9421:34:29 <robla> priority of T114454 , "low", plus a comment "please file a bigger picture RFC so that we can block this RFC with that RFC?
9521:34:29 <stashbot> T114454: [RFC] Visual Templates: Authoring templates with Visual Editor - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T114454
9621:34:34 <cscott> one of those things I think i want to take an afternoon to implement before discussing it further
9721:34:46 <cscott> robla: i'm pretty sure gwicke already has a bigger picture rfc for that
9821:35:01 <robla> cscott: which one?
9921:35:10 <cscott> "page components"/templates
10021:35:30 <gwicke> that's more focused on content, and not so much on UI
10121:35:54 <gwicke> the client-side front-end one is the UI complement
10221:36:02 <robla> cscott: Phab task?
10321:36:12 <cscott> i had an unconference session at the all-hands on the visual templates stuff and it went terribly, turns out everyone who signed up assumed i was going to teach them to use mediawiki's existing template system, not propose some new doesn't-exist-yet hotness
10421:36:24 <gwicke> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T111588
10521:36:31 <cscott> so in the unconference spirit the session got redirected to match what people actually wanted
10621:36:54 <Scott_WUaS> (gwicke: can you please share some URLs that currently focus "multi-lingual content should interact with caching & parsing"?)
10721:36:56 <gwicke> it's not specifically targeted at i18n currently
10821:37:09 <cscott> Scott_WUaS: that's daniel's RFCs
10921:37:28 <cscott> Scott_WUaS: T114662 and T114640
11021:37:28 <stashbot> T114662: RFC: Per-language URLs for multilingual wiki pages - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T114662
11121:37:28 <stashbot> T114640: RFC: make Parser::getTargetLanguage aware of multilingual wikis - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T114640
11221:37:42 <cscott> gwicke has commented on both of those, i believe, bringing up the caching issue
11321:37:48 <Scott_WUaS> Thnx:)
11421:37:58 <TimStarling> T114432 is next on the list, I thought it was a nice idea, but reception at the dev summit was mixed IIRC, and then there was no further discussion after that, so I guess it is low
11521:37:58 <stashbot> T114432: [RFC] Heredoc arguments for templates (aka "hygenic" or "long" arguments) - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T114432
11621:38:12 <gwicke> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T99088 has some high-level thoughts on the general problem area
11721:39:35 <cscott> I think T114432 actually had a meh reaction more than a negative one. i don't think people were opposed, but there is a very vocal contingent who reacts negatively whenever anything is said "to make things easier for visual editor"
11821:39:36 <stashbot> T114432: [RFC] Heredoc arguments for templates (aka "hygenic" or "long" arguments) - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T114432
11921:40:15 <robla> cscott: right, but are you disagreeing with TimStarling's proposed "low" priority?
12021:40:18 <SMalyshev> it looks like pretty arcane addition to already quite arcane syntax
12121:40:36 <gwicke> it might be useful to think through & write down how an API-driven frontend could help i18n specifically
12221:41:12 <cscott> robla: "low" seems right to me, i'm not blocked on further rfc discussion
12321:41:36 <robla> thanks cscott - ok, next up:
12421:41:50 <robla> T114421
12521:41:50 <stashbot> T114421: [RFC] Optional Travis integration for Jenkins - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T114421
12621:42:00 <robla> also cscott :-)
12721:42:35 <cscott> i still use my npm-travis tool, but ops seems violently opposed.
12821:42:54 <cscott> containerized test jobs is always right around the corner, and will eliminate any need for travis, i'm told.
12921:43:14 <robla> cscott: is that going to be in perpetual "agree to disagree" state, or do you see a way forward?
13021:43:56 <cscott> well, i don't have the appetite to fight that particular battle myself. it seems that teams are just going around ops and using travis if they need it.
13121:44:22 <cscott> that seems dysfunctional, but it's a dysfunction i'm not in a good place to address. it's not entirely clear that the RFC process is a good way to address it either.
13221:44:22 <gwicke> cscott: is *ops* really opposed? I only see releng on the task
13321:44:27 <cscott> so i'd say status "stalled"
13421:45:02 <robla> priority is "low" for ArchCom, I think....it may even be one that we take ourselves off of
13521:45:26 <gwicke> hehe
13621:45:26 <cscott> yeah.
13721:45:45 <robla> ok, next up
13821:45:56 <robla> T114394
13921:45:56 <stashbot> T114394: RFC: PageLookup service and PageRecord object - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T114394
14021:46:04 <TimStarling> with 15 minutes left, should we soon talk about scheduling for next week?
14121:46:05 <cscott> at the time in the flush of early excitement about the rfc process i may have abused it to try to settle impasses ;)
14221:46:19 <cscott> i think my rfcs are done, right?
14321:46:38 <robla> cscott: yup
14421:46:38 <TimStarling> cscott: yes
14521:47:17 <cscott> recapping from my perspective only, i think prototyping {{#lang}} (or whatever) was the only thing that rose to 'high' priority?
14621:47:24 <robla> TimStarling: good point. So....we didn't hit paydirt on anything we talked about yet as a candidate for next week
14721:47:56 <robla> anyone have a nomination for next week?
14821:48:05 <cscott> T91137?
14921:48:05 <stashbot> T91137: RFC: Support a branching content history model - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T91137
15021:48:12 <cscott> although i'd like to be there for that one as well, i guess.
15121:48:37 <cscott> T351 is mine too, i think, don't know why Qgil's name is associated.
15221:48:37 <stashbot> T351: RfC: Square bounding boxes - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T351
15321:48:56 <cscott> what about T96384? that seems like it should be straightforward perhaps?
15421:48:56 <stashbot> T96384: Integrate file revisions with description page history - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T96384
15521:49:03 <TimStarling> the low-numbered RFCs were copied from the wiki by qgil
15621:49:06 <cscott> that's a @daniel rfc
15721:49:08 <robla> T382 looks like an interesting choice
15821:49:09 <stashbot> T382: RfC: Server-side Javascript error logging - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T382
15921:49:31 <robla> cscott: we probably shouldn't choose one of yours if you're out next week
16021:50:43 <cscott> robla: yeah, that's why i nominated a T96384, a @daniel RFC. dunno his availability.
16121:50:43 <stashbot> T96384: Integrate file revisions with description page history - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T96384
16221:51:48 <cscott> hm, there's a @csteipp RFC as well, maybe that's worth getting to before he transitions out of the WMF headspace? T75953
16321:51:48 <stashbot> T75953: RFC: MediaWiki HTTPS policy - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T75953
16421:52:11 <cscott> it will probably be harder to get his participation if that if deferred for a few months
16521:53:41 <robla> ok....maybe in general I can take it as an action to figure out a security related RFC for next week. We also have T135963 as a recent one that has big implications worth discussing
16621:53:41 <stashbot> T135963: Add support for Content-Security-Policy (CSP) headers in MediaWiki - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T135963
16721:54:05 <TimStarling> sounds good
16821:54:25 <robla> Krinkle basically advised that we hold off a little bit on that one, though. He's going to be shepherding it. Still I'll be happy to own figuring this out
16921:54:41 <TimStarling> maybe csteipp will have an idea for a task which is not even tagged as an RFC yet
17021:54:51 <dapatrick> robla, why did Krinkle advise holding off?
17121:55:26 <TimStarling> he has 53 tasks assigned to him
17221:55:28 <robla> dapatrick - I think just because he had only just volunteered to shepherd, and I had just put him on the spot with "how about next week?"
17321:55:35 <Krinkle> dapatrick: I'm not advising to hold off on the project in general. Merely holding off on scheduling the IRC meeting as I familiarise myself with the task.
17421:55:40 <Krinkle> 1 week :)
17521:55:48 <TimStarling> authored 100
17621:56:07 <TimStarling> csteipp authored 100 open tasks
17721:56:21 <dapatrick> robla, Krinkle I see.
17821:56:24 <cscott> +1 to robla's plan to triage csteipp
17921:56:55 <cscott> and maybe T135963 for the week after that, it can be a security fest ;)
18021:56:55 <stashbot> T135963: Add support for Content-Security-Policy (CSP) headers in MediaWiki - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T135963
18121:57:11 <robla> ok....so....I think we're done with the realtime portion of the meeting. However, we also have Z425 as a place to continue this conversation in a less synchronous fashion
18221:57:33 <robla> #link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/Z425
18321:57:53 <robla> #info triage discussion can continue on Z425
18421:58:13 <Scott_WUaS> (Great process emerging here re Phabricator - thanks, all!)
18521:58:28 <robla> any last minute comments/questions/concerns before I officially end this meeting?
18621:59:21 * robla might actually end it *dozens of seconds* early
18721:59:38 <robla> #endmeeting

daniel renamed this event from RFC Meeting: triage meeting (2016-05-25, #wikimedia-office) to ArchCom RFC Meeting Wxx: <topic TBD> (<see "Starts" field>, #wikimedia-office).Nov 21 2016, 6:11 PM
daniel changed the host of this event from RobLa-WMF to daniel.
daniel invited: ; uninvited: .
daniel updated the event description. (Show Details)
daniel updated the event description. (Show Details)Dec 9 2016, 7:43 AM
daniel renamed this event from ArchCom RFC Meeting Wxx: <topic TBD> (<see "Starts" field>, #wikimedia-office) to RFC Meeting: triage meeting (2016-05-25, #wikimedia-office).