RFC Meeting: triage meeting (2016-05-25, #wikimedia-office)
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Hosted by daniel on May 25 2016, 9:00 PM - 10:00 PM.

Description

Location: #wikimedia-office IRC channel
Meeting type: TBD
Time: 2016-05-25, Wednesday 21:00 UTC (2pm PDT, 23:00 CEST)
Agenda:
- Triage discussion, where we work through issues on the TechCom-RFC board. More prep+discussion may happen at Conpherence {Z425}

Architecture meetings
13:00 PT ArchCom Planning Meetings	upcoming	all since 2016-03-30
14:00 PT ArchCom-RFC Meetings	upcoming	all since 2015-09-09

Recurring Event
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Event Series: This event is an instance of E66: ArchCom RFC Meeting Wxx: <topic TBD> (<see "Starts" field>, #wikimedia-office), and repeats every week.

Details

Invitees

TechCom
• RobLa-WMF
JanZerebecki
MarkAHershberger
daniel

Event Timeline

Scott_WUaS subscribed.May 18 2016, 10:00 PM

Next week. we're planning on having a triage of the TechCom-RFC board. I'll document more later.

• RobLa-WMF renamed this event from RFC Meeting: <topic TBD> (<see "Starts" field>, #wikimedia-office) to RFC Meeting: triage meeting (2016-05-25, #wikimedia-office).May 24 2016, 11:35 PM

• RobLa-WMF updated the event description. (Show Details)

Note: I've set up a Phabricator Conpherence room at Z362, which we can use as a slightly more asynchronous discussion forum for triaging items on the TechCom-RFC board.

A very crude semi-automated list of tasks in the Backlog column by priority:

I've copied the list from the previous comment (E187#2129) to https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Architecture_meetings/RFC_triage_2016-05-25. The page will be the agenda for today's meeting (please, play nice!)

Meeting summary

E187 ArchCom-RFC meeting - Please note: Channel is logged and publicly posted (DO NOT REMOVE THIS NOTE) | Logs: http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/%23wikimedia-office/ (robla, 21:01:33)
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Architecture_meetings/RFC_triage_2016-05-25 (robla, 21:04:45)
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T111588 (gwicke, 21:36:24)
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T99088 has some high-level thoughts on the general problem area (gwicke, 21:38:12)
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/Z425 (robla, 21:57:33)
triage discussion can continue on Z425 (robla, 21:57:53)

People present (lines said)

robla (58)
cscott (43)
TimStarling (33)
stashbot (23)
gwicke (15)
Scott_WUaS (5)
wm-labs-meetbot (3)
MaxSem (2)
dapatrick (2)
Krinkle (2)
SMalyshev (1)

Full log

P3179 2016-05-25 ArchCom-RFC triage meeting (#wikimedia-office)

1	21:00:44 <robla> #startmeeting E187 ArchCom-RFC triage meeting
2	21:00:44 <wm-labs-meetbot> Meeting started Wed May 25 21:00:44 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is robla. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
3	21:00:44 <wm-labs-meetbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
4	21:00:44 <wm-labs-meetbot> The meeting name has been set to 'e187_archcom_rfc_triage_meeting'
5	21:01:33 <robla> #topic E187 ArchCom-RFC meeting - Please note: Channel is logged and publicly posted (DO NOT REMOVE THIS NOTE) \| Logs: http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/%23wikimedia-office/
6	21:02:04 <robla> hi folks!
7	21:02:44 <Scott_WUaS> Hi
8	21:03:07 <Scott_WUaS> :)
9	21:04:45 <robla> #link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Architecture_meetings/RFC_triage_2016-05-25
10	21:05:16 <TimStarling> is the idea to assign priorities?
11	21:05:38 <robla> TimStarling: yeah, I think there's a couple of things I'd like to accomplish:
12	21:05:55 <robla> 1. Assign priorities for the "Backlog" items that say "need triage"
13	21:06:07 <robla> 2. Pick a good candidate for next week's IRC meeting
14	21:06:22 <robla> so....let's start with the top of the list I just linked to:
15	21:06:35 <robla> T128602
16	21:06:35 <stashbot> T128602: Create and deploy an extension that implements an authenticated key-value store. - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T128602
17	21:07:45 <robla> TimStarling: gwicke : Krinkle : is T128602 one that we just discussed in our meeting in the last hour today?
18	21:07:45 <stashbot> T128602: Create and deploy an extension that implements an authenticated key-value store. - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T128602
19	21:08:00 <TimStarling> don't think so
20	21:08:33 * gwicke does not think so either
21	21:08:56 <TimStarling> all the discussion was in march apparently
22	21:09:34 <TimStarling> is brion here?
23	21:09:52 <TimStarling> or tgr, Krenair, dbrant
24	21:11:01 <robla> perhaps we can set it to "normal" or "low" priority, and wait for objection?
25	21:11:02 <TimStarling> I think this RFC would not be controversial if it were discussed
26	21:11:14 <TimStarling> yeah, low priority
27	21:11:46 <TimStarling> it needs a committed client, once it has one of those, the priority can be higher
28	21:11:54 <robla> k....next on the list: T120380
29	21:11:54 <stashbot> T120380: RFC: Allow JSON values to be included in the API results - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T120380
30	21:12:55 <MaxSem> I'll summon yurik
31	21:13:16 <MaxSem> ...and he's not online :P
32	21:13:42 <robla> ok....normal? low? high?
33	21:14:18 <TimStarling> I think normal? there is conflict, which probably makes it more our responsibility than the implementor's
34	21:14:42 <TimStarling> anomie seems to be dead against it
35	21:14:44 <robla> normal it is
36	21:15:17 <robla> ok, next up: T119050
37	21:15:17 <stashbot> T119050: Parametric JSON builder - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T119050
38	21:15:21 <robla> same story with that one?
39	21:16:11 * robla prepares to say "yes" and move on
40	21:16:47 <robla> ok.... normal for 119050. Next up: T117550
41	21:16:48 <stashbot> T117550: [RFC] Content bundler - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T117550
42	21:17:06 <robla> that one is hexmode 's. Is he around?
43	21:18:44 <TimStarling> can you remind me what the criteria are for choosing the priority?
44	21:19:35 <robla> TimStarling: good point. I'm thinking priority should have a bit of a temporal element to it for our purposes
45	21:19:58 <TimStarling> something which needs to be discussed soon?
46	21:20:37 <TimStarling> I think this is low priority
47	21:21:02 <robla> yeah, so basically we should say this: "High" means "let's dedicate a meeting in the next 1-3 months (if not next week)
48	21:21:14 <TimStarling> on the basis that it may be superseded by shadow namespaces, and nobody is really pushing for it
49	21:21:29 <robla> "Medium" means "we really should resolve this by the end of the calendar year"
50	21:21:41 <TimStarling> we can discuss whether the requirements were met after shadow namespaces is done
51	21:22:36 <robla> ok...so, 117550 we can say is "low" priority, pending shadow namespaces
52	21:22:57 <robla> Next up: T114640
53	21:22:58 <stashbot> T114640: RFC: make Parser::getTargetLanguage aware of multilingual wikis - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T114640
54	21:22:58 <gwicke> there is also a connection to OCG's bundler stuff
55	21:23:57 <TimStarling> high? seeing as daniel keeps talking about it, and cscott is promising to prototype it (as of a month ago)
56	21:24:28 * cscott delurks
57	21:24:53 * robla waves at cscott
58	21:25:28 <robla> high priority for 114640 then? Sounds good to me
59	21:25:34 <robla> next up....
60	21:25:37 <cscott> oh, right, the {{#lang}} thing. Yeah, I could totally whip up a prototype for that....
61	21:25:43 <TimStarling> cscott: we are choosing priorities for RFCs, where priority has some kind of relationship to meeting scheduling
62	21:26:05 <cscott> one way or another it would be good to straighten out this whole "user interface language" thing.
63	21:26:23 <gwicke> I'm starting to think that we generally need to come up with a high-level strategy for how multi-lingual content should interact with caching & parsing
64	21:26:24 <TimStarling> so high = a relatively high chance of being scheduled in the next few months
65	21:26:36 <cscott> sure, just give me, say, 2 weeks notice before we schedule 114640 for discussion and i ought to be able to whip up a prototype to discuss.
66	21:26:39 <gwicke> these RFCs that focus on a part of the problem seem to be too narrow
67	21:27:04 <gwicke> we have had that come up repeatedly in the last weeks
68	21:27:13 <TimStarling> cscott: do you have any RFCs you would like to see discussed soon, e.g. next week?
69	21:27:14 <cscott> gwicke: sure, the point of the prototype is mostly to learn-by-doing and understand the problem better. in my case at least.
70	21:27:18 <TimStarling> next week's slot is empty
71	21:27:40 <cscott> TimStarling: i won't be able to attend the meeting next week, alas.
72	21:27:45 <cscott> i will be in bermuda
73	21:27:54 <TimStarling> poor you
74	21:27:55 <cscott> on a big boat
75	21:28:08 <TimStarling> ;.(
76	21:28:41 <robla> next week's meeting: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/E198
77	21:29:14 <robla> (it's boilerplate right now....let's figure out a candidate for next week)
78	21:29:51 <cscott> gwicke: without going too off-topic for your scheduling meeting, i agree that there are large issues related to how commons and wikidata handle multilingual content... and how they mix UX (via templates) and "content".
79	21:30:11 <robla> anyway, it looks like 114640 (or any of cscott's) are bad choices. We'll set T114640 to high, and maybe move on
80	21:30:11 <stashbot> T114640: RFC: make Parser::getTargetLanguage aware of multilingual wikis - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T114640
81	21:30:14 <gwicke> cscott: the elephant in the room is caching & fragmentation
82	21:30:47 <gwicke> currently, none of the proposals seem to address that seriously
83	21:30:49 <cscott> yeah, it may be worth trying to build new tools that let commons/wikidata/etc construct UX in a caching-friendly way.
84	21:31:37 <robla> cscott: next up: T114454
85	21:31:38 <stashbot> T114454: [RFC] Visual Templates: Authoring templates with Visual Editor - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T114454
86	21:31:38 <cscott> some sort of template system that lives between the existing handlebars templates and the existing wikitext templates, perhaps.
87	21:31:45 <cscott> oh, speak of the devil! ;)
88	21:32:19 <robla> cscott: we're using this as the list, and you're name is on there a lot :-) https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Architecture_meetings/RFC_triage_2016-05-25
89	21:32:42 <cscott> here maybe i'll take gwicke's point and say it would be good from an RFC perspective to have a higher-level discussion about templates and components and caching.
90	21:32:57 <TimStarling> pretty obvious who the author is when it talks about templates being "hygenic by default"
91	21:33:29 <cscott> oh, i thought i'd scrubbed the word "hygenic" from all my proposals
92	21:33:38 <robla> :-)
93	21:34:03 <TimStarling> I think this is low? pretty old and not recently discussed in the parsing team
94	21:34:29 <robla> priority of T114454 , "low", plus a comment "please file a bigger picture RFC so that we can block this RFC with that RFC?
95	21:34:29 <stashbot> T114454: [RFC] Visual Templates: Authoring templates with Visual Editor - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T114454
96	21:34:34 <cscott> one of those things I think i want to take an afternoon to implement before discussing it further
97	21:34:46 <cscott> robla: i'm pretty sure gwicke already has a bigger picture rfc for that
98	21:35:01 <robla> cscott: which one?
99	21:35:10 <cscott> "page components"/templates
100	21:35:30 <gwicke> that's more focused on content, and not so much on UI
101	21:35:54 <gwicke> the client-side front-end one is the UI complement
102	21:36:02 <robla> cscott: Phab task?
103	21:36:12 <cscott> i had an unconference session at the all-hands on the visual templates stuff and it went terribly, turns out everyone who signed up assumed i was going to teach them to use mediawiki's existing template system, not propose some new doesn't-exist-yet hotness
104	21:36:24 <gwicke> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T111588
105	21:36:31 <cscott> so in the unconference spirit the session got redirected to match what people actually wanted
106	21:36:54 <Scott_WUaS> (gwicke: can you please share some URLs that currently focus "multi-lingual content should interact with caching & parsing"?)
107	21:36:56 <gwicke> it's not specifically targeted at i18n currently
108	21:37:09 <cscott> Scott_WUaS: that's daniel's RFCs
109	21:37:28 <cscott> Scott_WUaS: T114662 and T114640
110	21:37:28 <stashbot> T114662: RFC: Per-language URLs for multilingual wiki pages - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T114662
111	21:37:28 <stashbot> T114640: RFC: make Parser::getTargetLanguage aware of multilingual wikis - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T114640
112	21:37:42 <cscott> gwicke has commented on both of those, i believe, bringing up the caching issue
113	21:37:48 <Scott_WUaS> Thnx:)
114	21:37:58 <TimStarling> T114432 is next on the list, I thought it was a nice idea, but reception at the dev summit was mixed IIRC, and then there was no further discussion after that, so I guess it is low
115	21:37:58 <stashbot> T114432: [RFC] Heredoc arguments for templates (aka "hygenic" or "long" arguments) - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T114432
116	21:38:12 <gwicke> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T99088 has some high-level thoughts on the general problem area
117	21:39:35 <cscott> I think T114432 actually had a meh reaction more than a negative one. i don't think people were opposed, but there is a very vocal contingent who reacts negatively whenever anything is said "to make things easier for visual editor"
118	21:39:36 <stashbot> T114432: [RFC] Heredoc arguments for templates (aka "hygenic" or "long" arguments) - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T114432
119	21:40:15 <robla> cscott: right, but are you disagreeing with TimStarling's proposed "low" priority?
120	21:40:18 <SMalyshev> it looks like pretty arcane addition to already quite arcane syntax
121	21:40:36 <gwicke> it might be useful to think through & write down how an API-driven frontend could help i18n specifically
122	21:41:12 <cscott> robla: "low" seems right to me, i'm not blocked on further rfc discussion
123	21:41:36 <robla> thanks cscott - ok, next up:
124	21:41:50 <robla> T114421
125	21:41:50 <stashbot> T114421: [RFC] Optional Travis integration for Jenkins - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T114421
126	21:42:00 <robla> also cscott :-)
127	21:42:35 <cscott> i still use my npm-travis tool, but ops seems violently opposed.
128	21:42:54 <cscott> containerized test jobs is always right around the corner, and will eliminate any need for travis, i'm told.
129	21:43:14 <robla> cscott: is that going to be in perpetual "agree to disagree" state, or do you see a way forward?
130	21:43:56 <cscott> well, i don't have the appetite to fight that particular battle myself. it seems that teams are just going around ops and using travis if they need it.
131	21:44:22 <cscott> that seems dysfunctional, but it's a dysfunction i'm not in a good place to address. it's not entirely clear that the RFC process is a good way to address it either.
132	21:44:22 <gwicke> cscott: is ops really opposed? I only see releng on the task
133	21:44:27 <cscott> so i'd say status "stalled"
134	21:45:02 <robla> priority is "low" for ArchCom, I think....it may even be one that we take ourselves off of
135	21:45:26 <gwicke> hehe
136	21:45:26 <cscott> yeah.
137	21:45:45 <robla> ok, next up
138	21:45:56 <robla> T114394
139	21:45:56 <stashbot> T114394: RFC: PageLookup service and PageRecord object - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T114394
140	21:46:04 <TimStarling> with 15 minutes left, should we soon talk about scheduling for next week?
141	21:46:05 <cscott> at the time in the flush of early excitement about the rfc process i may have abused it to try to settle impasses ;)
142	21:46:19 <cscott> i think my rfcs are done, right?
143	21:46:38 <robla> cscott: yup
144	21:46:38 <TimStarling> cscott: yes
145	21:47:17 <cscott> recapping from my perspective only, i think prototyping {{#lang}} (or whatever) was the only thing that rose to 'high' priority?
146	21:47:24 <robla> TimStarling: good point. So....we didn't hit paydirt on anything we talked about yet as a candidate for next week
147	21:47:56 <robla> anyone have a nomination for next week?
148	21:48:05 <cscott> T91137?
149	21:48:05 <stashbot> T91137: RFC: Support a branching content history model - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T91137
150	21:48:12 <cscott> although i'd like to be there for that one as well, i guess.
151	21:48:37 <cscott> T351 is mine too, i think, don't know why Qgil's name is associated.
152	21:48:37 <stashbot> T351: RfC: Square bounding boxes - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T351
153	21:48:56 <cscott> what about T96384? that seems like it should be straightforward perhaps?
154	21:48:56 <stashbot> T96384: Integrate file revisions with description page history - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T96384
155	21:49:03 <TimStarling> the low-numbered RFCs were copied from the wiki by qgil
156	21:49:06 <cscott> that's a @daniel rfc
157	21:49:08 <robla> T382 looks like an interesting choice
158	21:49:09 <stashbot> T382: RfC: Server-side Javascript error logging - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T382
159	21:49:31 <robla> cscott: we probably shouldn't choose one of yours if you're out next week
160	21:50:43 <cscott> robla: yeah, that's why i nominated a T96384, a @daniel RFC. dunno his availability.
161	21:50:43 <stashbot> T96384: Integrate file revisions with description page history - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T96384
162	21:51:48 <cscott> hm, there's a @csteipp RFC as well, maybe that's worth getting to before he transitions out of the WMF headspace? T75953
163	21:51:48 <stashbot> T75953: RFC: MediaWiki HTTPS policy - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T75953
164	21:52:11 <cscott> it will probably be harder to get his participation if that if deferred for a few months
165	21:53:41 <robla> ok....maybe in general I can take it as an action to figure out a security related RFC for next week. We also have T135963 as a recent one that has big implications worth discussing
166	21:53:41 <stashbot> T135963: Add support for Content-Security-Policy (CSP) headers in MediaWiki - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T135963
167	21:54:05 <TimStarling> sounds good
168	21:54:25 <robla> Krinkle basically advised that we hold off a little bit on that one, though. He's going to be shepherding it. Still I'll be happy to own figuring this out
169	21:54:41 <TimStarling> maybe csteipp will have an idea for a task which is not even tagged as an RFC yet
170	21:54:51 <dapatrick> robla, why did Krinkle advise holding off?
171	21:55:26 <TimStarling> he has 53 tasks assigned to him
172	21:55:28 <robla> dapatrick - I think just because he had only just volunteered to shepherd, and I had just put him on the spot with "how about next week?"
173	21:55:35 <Krinkle> dapatrick: I'm not advising to hold off on the project in general. Merely holding off on scheduling the IRC meeting as I familiarise myself with the task.
174	21:55:40 <Krinkle> 1 week :)
175	21:55:48 <TimStarling> authored 100
176	21:56:07 <TimStarling> csteipp authored 100 open tasks
177	21:56:21 <dapatrick> robla, Krinkle I see.
178	21:56:24 <cscott> +1 to robla's plan to triage csteipp
179	21:56:55 <cscott> and maybe T135963 for the week after that, it can be a security fest ;)
180	21:56:55 <stashbot> T135963: Add support for Content-Security-Policy (CSP) headers in MediaWiki - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T135963
181	21:57:11 <robla> ok....so....I think we're done with the realtime portion of the meeting. However, we also have Z425 as a place to continue this conversation in a less synchronous fashion
182	21:57:33 <robla> #link https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/Z425
183	21:57:53 <robla> #info triage discussion can continue on Z425
184	21:58:13 <Scott_WUaS> (Great process emerging here re Phabricator - thanks, all!)
185	21:58:28 <robla> any last minute comments/questions/concerns before I officially end this meeting?
186	21:59:21 * robla might actually end it dozens of seconds early
187	21:59:38 <robla> #endmeeting

• RobLa-WMF mentioned this in E198: RFC Meeting: Security is all of our jobs (2016-06-01, #wikimedia-office).May 27 2016, 11:20 PM

• RobLa-WMF mentioned this in T128602: RFC: Backend for synchronized data from Wikipedia mobile apps.Jun 8 2016, 6:57 PM

• RobLa-WMF mentioned this in T120380: RFC: Allow JSON values to be included in the API results .

• RobLa-WMF mentioned this in T119050: Parametric JSON builder.Jun 8 2016, 7:00 PM

• RobLa-WMF mentioned this in T117550: [RFC] Content bundler.

• RobLa-WMF mentioned this in T114640: make Parser::getTargetLanguage aware of multilingual wikis.Jun 8 2016, 7:03 PM

• RobLa-WMF mentioned this in T114454: [RFC] Visual Templates: Authoring templates with Visual Editor.Jun 8 2016, 7:07 PM

• RobLa-WMF mentioned this in T114432: [RFC] Heredoc arguments for templates (aka "hygienic" or "long" arguments).

• RobLa-WMF mentioned this in T114421: [RFC] Optional Travis integration for Jenkins.Jun 8 2016, 7:13 PM

• RobLa-WMF mentioned this in T146749: Consider using Phabricator Calendar events to schedule Wikimedia Developer Summit sessions.Oct 6 2016, 5:57 AM

daniel renamed this event from RFC Meeting: triage meeting (2016-05-25, #wikimedia-office) to ArchCom RFC Meeting Wxx: <topic TBD> (<see "Starts" field>, #wikimedia-office).Nov 21 2016, 6:11 PM

daniel changed the host of this event from • RobLa-WMF to daniel.

daniel invited: ; uninvited: .

daniel updated the event description. (Show Details)

daniel updated the event description. (Show Details)Dec 9 2016, 7:43 AM

daniel renamed this event from ArchCom RFC Meeting Wxx: <topic TBD> (<see "Starts" field>, #wikimedia-office) to RFC Meeting: triage meeting (2016-05-25, #wikimedia-office).

RFC Meeting: triage meeting (2016-05-25, #wikimedia-office)ActivePublicActions

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