Disable login on loginwiki
Closed, DeclinedPublic

Description

In order to effectively use the LoginNotify extension, we will need to disable login on loginwiki.

For some suggestions on how to do this see T154064#2973937 and Anomie's comments at https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/333653/.

kaldari created this task.Jan 26 2017, 8:45 PM
kaldari moved this task from Untriaged to To be estimated/discussed on the Community-Tech board.
Tgr added a subscriber: Tgr.Jan 26 2017, 10:12 PM

Could you please clarify what 'disable login' means? If you meant not being able to use Special:UserLogin that'd be a problem, because stewards use that wiki to counter abuse and not being able to log in there would block our work.

Could you please clarify what 'disable login' means? If you meant not being able to use Special:UserLogin that'd be a problem, because stewards use that wiki to counter abuse and not being able to log in there would block our work.

Yes, we mean not being able to use Special:UserLogin.
Can you explain a bit more about how you use that wiki to counter abuse? And could you possibly use a different wiki for the same job?

TheDJ added subscribers: hoo, TheDJ.Jan 27 2017, 11:39 AM

@Niharika Apparently because we have no CheckUser functionality at the 'global' level, the login.wikimedia.org CheckUser extension is used to get cross wiki information about users. ping @hoo, who probably knows about the technical details.

@Niharika as @TheDJ said, we use loginwiki to deter spam/vandalism/abuse. If you remove our access there, our work would get seriously hindered. Can at least CentralAuth auto login be kept there so stewards visiting from Meta could still get access to the tools there? This is very important for us. Thank you.

hoo added a comment.Jan 27 2017, 11:57 AM

Indeed… so we don't necessary need login via a local Special:UserLogin or some such, but we need an active session on loginwiki, in order to access Special:CheckUser there.

Can at least CentralAuth auto login be kept there so stewards visiting from Meta could still get access to the tools there?

That should probably be fine. Thanks all for your input!

Tegel added a subscriber: Tegel.Jan 27 2017, 3:33 PM

Since it sounds like people do actually use loginwiki to do stuff, maybe turning on Echo there makes more sense than disabling login. The only downside to that is that we might (in rare situations) be sending people to a wiki they've never heard of. I'm beginning to think that may be the best solution though.

Tgr added a comment.Jan 31 2017, 10:38 PM

I doubt anyone actually uses loginwiki to log in. (Well, apparently there are a few logins per day but I doubt those are legitimate users.) OTOH if anti-abuse people do spend time on loginwiki, having Echo work there seems like a reasonable expectation.

Stewards use loginwiki more than 10'000 times per year, see https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Stewards/CheckUser_statistics_for_loginwiki. To date, we need to login to loginwiki to be able to check IPs there with the checkuser tool.

Tgr added a comment.Jan 31 2017, 10:55 PM

You don't need to log in in loginwiki, you need to be logged in in loginwiki. It's not the same thing.

Niharika added a comment.EditedFeb 1 2017, 6:51 AM

Stewards use loginwiki more than 10'000 times per year, see https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Stewards/CheckUser_statistics_for_loginwiki. To date, we need to login to loginwiki to be able to check IPs there with the checkuser tool.

As Tgr said, you don't need to actually login on loginwiki. You can login on enwiki (or any other wiki which uses centralauth) and you'd be logged in on loginwiki automatically.

kaldari added a subscriber: DannyH.Feb 1 2017, 5:42 PM

It looks like loginwiki gets about 10 logins per day. Even though it isn't necessary for anyone to log into loginwiki directly, disabling it might be a slight annoyance for those users. Considering that it's also a bit complicated to actually disable login (see T154064#2973937 and Anomie's comments at https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/333653/), what do people think of enabling Echo on loginwiki instead? It seems like it would be the faster solution and maybe less problematic. (Plus stewards might actually like having Echo on loginwiki.) @DannyH @hoo @MarcoAurelio

If I understand it, the potential downside to turning on Echo at Loginwiki is that if somebody tries and fails to log into my account on Loginwiki, then I'll get a message directing me to a wiki that I never heard of.

But that's true of any wiki, isn't it? If someone tried to log into my account on Egyptian Wikiversity, I'd be surprised by that too. I'd still want to know if somebody's trying to use my account.

Tgr added a comment.Feb 3 2017, 1:20 AM

If I understand it, the potential downside to turning on Echo at Loginwiki is that if somebody tries and fails to log into my account on Loginwiki, then I'll get a message directing me to a wiki that I never heard of.
But that's true of any wiki, isn't it? If someone tried to log into my account on Egyptian Wikiversity, I'd be surprised by that too. I'd still want to know if somebody's trying to use my account.

I don't think Echo notifications necessarily have to direct you to the wiki where they were triggered. They could send you to some Meta page which has advice, for example.
There are some usability issues with cross-wiki notifications (local notifications stay visible when you mark them as read, cross-wiki notifications disappear and there is no way to view them again without knowing which wiki they are from). It's probably possible to send the login notification from a different wiki, (e.g. always the home wiki), though, if that's preferable.

I think the reason to keep extension footprint on loginwiki minimal was more about robustness: errors / security issues affecting could be more severe than those on a normal wiki.

It looks like the current LoginNotify notifications typically just tell you that a login happened or was attempted (without linking to anywhere), e.g. "There have been 5 failed attempts to login to your account since the last time you logged in." So it seems like the potential for causing confusion is minimal.

There are some usability issues with cross-wiki notifications (local notifications stay visible when you mark them as read, cross-wiki notifications disappear and there is no way to view them again without knowing which wiki they are from).

True, but in this case I don't think it matters that much. We just want to make sure the user is notified, but there isn't really a need to refer to the notification again afterwards.

I think the reason to keep extension footprint on loginwiki minimal was more about robustness: errors / security issues affecting could be more severe than those on a normal wiki.

Makes sense. I think Echo should be stable enough at this point that it won't pose much of a risk though. Hopefully at some point, it will even be moved into core.

kaldari closed this task as Declined.Feb 3 2017, 6:30 AM
kaldari moved this task from Epic backlog to Archive on the Community-Tech board.Feb 3 2017, 5:28 PM