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Add monolingual language code cmg
Open, Stalled, LowPublic

Description

Following task T137810 that was closed with some agreements that cmg support on property P1705 could be a good alternative to a code for traditional Mongolian script after more than one year of debate.

For "cmg", see Classical Mongolian (Q5128303)

Event Timeline

Oops, that was opened in june 2016, so more 2 years and half, not one year, and the property link seem to be wrong.

Please consider the following email response given to @Liuxinyu970226 when they asked certain linguistic expert about their opinion on the matter: https://imgur.com/a/YT8bnzJ (I am not sure whether sufficient permissions have been obtained by the user for me to link the mail on the public internet but let's just look at it for now)

cmg is defined as a historical language. Is it really appropriate to use that for modern-day names/text in Mongolian script?

Liuxinyu970226 added a subscriber: Mbch331.

@Mbch331 I'm afraid that, due to still ongoing language code conflict issue as Nikki pointed, this isn't suitable for good first task

Where do we stand with the discussion then. @Amire80 @jhsoby Could you resolve this or know who could?

Ping @Amire80 @jhsoby Can you answer Lydia's question?

Uhhhhhhhhhh, T137810 is long.

Can anyone summarize why is cmg better than mvf?

We already have mvf in Incubator and translatewiki. Or is this specifically supposed to be for the old variety of the language?

T137810 had an extremely negative effect on me and I have no desire to get dragged back into that argument, sorry.

I believe there is not so much difference. If I remember of everything after few years of try, some argued that any of them can't be used in Wikimedia because they are meta-languages, not languages,, because mvf, based on Chakhar/Chahar, and there are other languages after some definitions. People opposed said that's the rule to note create new meta-languages entries, only languages are accepted.

There is already mn (also a meta after those norms, but in Wikipedia, match, official Khalkha/Halha (khk) dialect from Outer Mongolia (or Mongolia state) and is wrote Cyrillic (All Outer Mongolian people don't understand traditional Mongolian, that's mainly used in art there, but will should come back as official script in about ten years).

mvf is the official written (in Mongolian script) and spoken language by millions of people in inner Mongolia, spoken at inner Mongolian TV channels, wrote in newspaper, road signs, learnt at school, spoke in buses/train station for station/warnings, museums, etc,

The current norms say that's a meta-language, not a language, some spotted, errors in current norms.

All this Mongolian varieties are not very far each from other anyway. If we consider mvf a metalanguage, we should do too for ja, as Kansai Japanese (for example) use lot of words, tones, grammar rules different from official Tokyo japanese. The same for standard mandarin (cmn) vs NW/NE/SE/SW mandarins (SW one is one of the ten most spoken languages on earth).

With my very very low knowledge in Mongolia I was able to exchange using Khalkha Mongolian (khk) official language from outer Mongolia (most courses are from this dialect, and I only know people of Outer Mongolia in France), with people from south of inner Mongolia,, (mvf), from Ordos and Chifeng. They understood everything. As far I searched for words in dictionaries referring to cmg Outer mongolian one using both cyrillic Mongolian and traditional Mongolian scripts or those using mvf I didn't found differences, I suppose there are at least some in vocabulary usage, but there are dialects of the same language.

Mongolians used lot of scripts in their history, first one (since ~13th century) and most longer user one is traditional mongolian script, that is derived from uyghur script (uyghurs use arabian script adapted to turkic language in China today).

There are other varieties of Mongolian, that are not grouped in mn/mvf, and are really different Mongolian languages, not understandable by khk/mvf :

  • Buriat (bua, with subode, bxu (China), bxm (Mongolia), bxr (Buriatia (russian federation)
  • Kalmyk (xal) also called oirat, mainly spoken in China (mainly Qinghai and Xinjiang provinces) and in Kalmyk Republic, in eastern Europe
  • Daur/dagur (dta) in most north-east part of inner Mongolia and at East of Buriatia
  • Moghol (mhj) in Herat province, Afghanistan

There are few other, spoken by more little groups

  • Monguor/Tu, in Qinghai province, China (influenced by Tibetan language)
  • Yugur, in Gansu province, China
  • ...

So, we already have these:

  • Fully supported everywhere: Wikipedia, MediaWiki, Wikidata, language-data, and translatewiki:
    • mn - Mongolian, Cyrillic script. (Maybe not perfectly standard, because it should be khk and mn is a macro language, but that's the de facto standard for the standard language of the Republic of Mongolia. We have the same issue with Albanian and Estonian, and it's not really a disaster.)
    • xal - Kalmyk, Cyrillic script.
    • bxr - Buriat, Cyrillic script.
  • Supported in language-data, translatewiki, and incubator:
    • mvf - Mongolian, Mongolian script. There is some activity in the Incubator. There's no activity in translatewiki, unfortunately, but if anyone is interested in contributing, it's immediately available, and if someone translates enough messages, it will become fully supported in MediaWiki, and no special treatment for Wikidata will be needed. Till then, it's totally fine to add it for Wikidata.

Now the question is whether cmg is still needed separately. If it's substantially different from mvf and names would be written differently, then I guess it's fine to add it. But if the names are written the same way in cmg and mvf, it makes more sense to me to just keep using mvf.

I first created this because Mongolian in mongolian script was rejected in all it's codes, but it could be usefut to referring to this code for name of medieval Mongolian people, as the notion of mvf didn't exists at this time, this could avoid anachronisms.

Esc3300 changed the task status from Open to Stalled.Jun 21 2021, 8:31 AM
Esc3300 triaged this task as Low priority.

Changed status given the lack of samples and set priority accordingly.

Which kind of sample do you want.

As an exemplle, from :
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_bitchig

{{lang|cmg-Mon|ᠮᠣᠩᠭᠣᠯ ᠪᠢᠴᠢᠭ}} this is the name of the Mongolian script in classical and modern Mongolian.

Which kind of sample do you want.

As an exemplle, from :
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_bitchig

{{lang|cmg-Mon|ᠮᠣᠩᠭᠣᠯ ᠪᠢᠴᠢᠭ}} this is the name of the Mongolian script in classical and modern Mongolian.

As mentioned on the page linked by @Esc3300 It has to be required for an actual use-case on Wikidata (other than label in officiële taal (P1705) on item for the language itself)
So we need examples of how it's going to be used on Wikidata besides for P1705.

As mentioned on the page linked by @Esc3300 It has to be required for an actual use-case on Wikidata (other than label in officiële taal (P1705) on item for the language itself)
So we need examples of how it's going to be used on Wikidata besides for P1705.

That page has never been officially followed (and was outright rejected by a Langcom member in the now-declined request T137810 when I linked to it) and examples have never been required, as you can see from approved requests (that you implemented!) like T265296 and nan-hani on T180771. T198366 was even added with no evidence that anyone wanted it for monolingual text, let alone any examples. Why should the requirements suddenly be higher for this request?

General comment: Sorry about some delays these days. I have some unexpected stuff In Real Life (silly things, don't worry about me), and it coincides with a large wave of Language codes issues. I'll respond to everything some time very soon.

@Nikki We are moving ahead .. it's WMF .. so we are going two steps forward, then one step back.

We are trying to separate the incubator stuff from other, but there seems to be some odd dependency, not really explicitly addressed before: T273705

If there is no usage sample(s), I don't quite see why we would create the code.

So I give the most basic example, I can add several case mn is wrongly used (but was the only not to far available option) to have the original name wrote in wikidata, for people of 13~15th century. The oldest know in this script is there: https://altaica.ru/e_dursgal.php probably not fare from the date of it's creation by Tata Tungkha (ᠲᠠᠲᠠᠲᠤᠩᠭ᠎ᠠ <= another exemple), after Chinggis Khan asked him to create a script for Mongolian, inspirited from this time uyghur script (today no more used, arabic in China and cyrillic in neighbourg are used instead).

T262922 links a sample in its task description. If you can do one or several similar ones, that would be sufficient.

If it's for a field in wikidata, here is:

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q720

Chingis Khaan, with his native name in Mongolian from his time (ᠴᠢᠩᠭᠢᠰ ᠬᠠᠭᠠᠨ Činggis qaγan) and in today khalkha from independent Mongolia (Чингис хаан), in Cyrillic.

Maybe I should have linked Help:Monolingual_text_languages#When_a_language_code_is_missing that explains step by step how this was for the one I mentioned.

If I follow the ref, I added mul + 2*P407 with cmg (Midle mongolian) and mvf (Mongolian of China).

If you use "mul", you wouldn't actually need "cmg".

If you use "mul", you wouldn't actually need "cmg".

Are you trying to play catch 22? The data cannot be input into wikidata under the correct code unless it's approved and added here, but to approve a code and add it, it is necessary for the code to first be used inside wikidata?

Mult is multilanguage: the other one is mongolian of china that is compatible for this term, but this is a modern mongolian, and this is a name from 13th century...

OK, I removed mvf, that could be used to day as khalkha, but the text is in medieval mongolian, and replaced multi by miss

And at the same time, both cmg and mvf are missing, i fight for 5 years for having at least one them now. but it looks more and more like there is interest to avoid theme? Still don't understand why?

I corrected also the name in cyrillic mongolism, this is not the Mongolian meta language (only mn meta-language is supported for now)
, but only the Khalkha variant. The 3 languages are unsupported.

I'm not sure if I understand where is it stuck. I appears to go in circles. As far as I can see, mvf was added for lexemes. It can be added for values, too. If there are cases where cmg and mvf would be different, cmg can be added, too. Am I missing something obvious?

cmg is often similar to mvf, but not sure it is always the case, as mvf is still a living language, cmg a medieval one.
I don't know what is missing, in wich system parti, but it can't be added in values for now.
It was created at time of Chinggis Khaan so could be anachronic to use mvf (mongolian of china) to words that are created/used in Mongolian empire even before they start to conquest China. I believe He conquest Beijing, but it was in Khitan empire at his time, that's, his several generation later son, Khubilai that make it capital of whole China (about 1270).

Give me one example where the cmg value would be different from mvf, and I'll approve it :)

Do you know at least how to use mvf now, because I still can't use it a standard way and still need to put an unsupported language tag?

I suggest to replace latin by english in name in its original language here : https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1048 well the current script is already wrong, as lower case characters was created in about 6th~7th century, but we don't care about this isn't it?

Wikidata just need to be a garbage with inconsistent data...

@Mbch331, I see mvf in the code of WikibaseLexeme, but I cannot actually add lexemes in it. And I don't see it in the code of Wikibase at all. Can you add it please?

@Mbch331, I see mvf in the code of WikibaseLexeme, but I cannot actually add lexemes in it. And I don't see it in the code of Wikibase at all. Can you add it please?

If you choose a language (which is a Wikibase item) I can choose mvf as a spelling variant.
The language is a Wikibase Item, so if the language isn't available, then an item needs to be created for that.

So with the example from July 7 last year, why isn't this request proceeding?

I don't understand what is blocking either.