- Mentioned In
- T282512: Add lexeme language codes ha-arab, sux-latn, sux-xsux, gsg, tlh-piqd, tlh-latn
T137810: [Task] Add monolingual language code mn-Mong
- Mentioned Here
- P407 Masterwork From Distant Lands
T262922: Add monolingual language code gsw-fr // Elsässisch
T273705: disallow use by Incubator of language codes such as "en-gb", "es-mx", "qqq" etc
T180771: Add monolingual language codes nan-hani, cdo-hani, hak-hans, hak-hant
T198366: Add monolingual language code kld (Gamilaraay)
T265296: Add monolingual language code oma
T137810: [Task] Add monolingual language code mn-Mong
P1705 alemannic babel categories' conflicts
Please consider the following email response given to @Liuxinyu970226 when they asked certain linguistic expert about their opinion on the matter: https://imgur.com/a/YT8bnzJ (I am not sure whether sufficient permissions have been obtained by the user for me to link the mail on the public internet but let's just look at it for now)
I believe there is not so much difference. If I remember of everything after few years of try, some argued that any of them can't be used in Wikimedia because they are meta-languages, not languages,, because mvf, based on Chakhar/Chahar, and there are other languages after some definitions. People opposed said that's the rule to note create new meta-languages entries, only languages are accepted.
There is already mn (also a meta after those norms, but in Wikipedia, match, official Khalkha/Halha (khk) dialect from Outer Mongolia (or Mongolia state) and is wrote Cyrillic (All Outer Mongolian people don't understand traditional Mongolian, that's mainly used in art there, but will should come back as official script in about ten years).
mvf is the official written (in Mongolian script) and spoken language by millions of people in inner Mongolia, spoken at inner Mongolian TV channels, wrote in newspaper, road signs, learnt at school, spoke in buses/train station for station/warnings, museums, etc,
The current norms say that's a meta-language, not a language, some spotted, errors in current norms.
All this Mongolian varieties are not very far each from other anyway. If we consider mvf a metalanguage, we should do too for ja, as Kansai Japanese (for example) use lot of words, tones, grammar rules different from official Tokyo japanese. The same for standard mandarin (cmn) vs NW/NE/SE/SW mandarins (SW one is one of the ten most spoken languages on earth).
With my very very low knowledge in Mongolia I was able to exchange using Khalkha Mongolian (khk) official language from outer Mongolia (most courses are from this dialect, and I only know people of Outer Mongolia in France), with people from south of inner Mongolia,, (mvf), from Ordos and Chifeng. They understood everything. As far I searched for words in dictionaries referring to cmg Outer mongolian one using both cyrillic Mongolian and traditional Mongolian scripts or those using mvf I didn't found differences, I suppose there are at least some in vocabulary usage, but there are dialects of the same language.
Mongolians used lot of scripts in their history, first one (since ~13th century) and most longer user one is traditional mongolian script, that is derived from uyghur script (uyghurs use arabian script adapted to turkic language in China today).
There are other varieties of Mongolian, that are not grouped in mn/mvf, and are really different Mongolian languages, not understandable by khk/mvf :
- Buriat (bua, with subode, bxu (China), bxm (Mongolia), bxr (Buriatia (russian federation)
- Kalmyk (xal) also called oirat, mainly spoken in China (mainly Qinghai and Xinjiang provinces) and in Kalmyk Republic, in eastern Europe
- Daur/dagur (dta) in most north-east part of inner Mongolia and at East of Buriatia
- Moghol (mhj) in Herat province, Afghanistan
There are few other, spoken by more little groups
- Monguor/Tu, in Qinghai province, China (influenced by Tibetan language)
- Yugur, in Gansu province, China
So, we already have these:
- Fully supported everywhere: Wikipedia, MediaWiki, Wikidata, language-data, and translatewiki:
- mn - Mongolian, Cyrillic script. (Maybe not perfectly standard, because it should be khk and mn is a macro language, but that's the de facto standard for the standard language of the Republic of Mongolia. We have the same issue with Albanian and Estonian, and it's not really a disaster.)
- xal - Kalmyk, Cyrillic script.
- bxr - Buriat, Cyrillic script.
- Supported in language-data, translatewiki, and incubator:
- mvf - Mongolian, Mongolian script. There is some activity in the Incubator. There's no activity in translatewiki, unfortunately, but if anyone is interested in contributing, it's immediately available, and if someone translates enough messages, it will become fully supported in MediaWiki, and no special treatment for Wikidata will be needed. Till then, it's totally fine to add it for Wikidata.
Now the question is whether cmg is still needed separately. If it's substantially different from mvf and names would be written differently, then I guess it's fine to add it. But if the names are written the same way in cmg and mvf, it makes more sense to me to just keep using mvf.
I first created this because Mongolian in mongolian script was rejected in all it's codes, but it could be usefut to referring to this code for name of medieval Mongolian people, as the notion of mvf didn't exists at this time, this could avoid anachronisms.
@Popolon This request doesn't include any samples, can you add them in the task description?
That page has never been officially followed (and was outright rejected by a Langcom member in the now-declined request T137810 when I linked to it) and examples have never been required, as you can see from approved requests (that you implemented!) like T265296 and nan-hani on T180771. T198366 was even added with no evidence that anyone wanted it for monolingual text, let alone any examples. Why should the requirements suddenly be higher for this request?
General comment: Sorry about some delays these days. I have some unexpected stuff In Real Life (silly things, don't worry about me), and it coincides with a large wave of Language codes issues. I'll respond to everything some time very soon.
@Nikki We are moving ahead .. it's WMF .. so we are going two steps forward, then one step back.
We are trying to separate the incubator stuff from other, but there seems to be some odd dependency, not really explicitly addressed before: T273705
If there is no usage sample(s), I don't quite see why we would create the code.
So I give the most basic example, I can add several case mn is wrongly used (but was the only not to far available option) to have the original name wrote in wikidata, for people of 13~15th century. The oldest know in this script is there: https://altaica.ru/e_dursgal.php probably not fare from the date of it's creation by Tata Tungkha (ᠲᠠᠲᠠᠲᠤᠩᠭᠠ <= another exemple), after Chinggis Khan asked him to create a script for Mongolian, inspirited from this time uyghur script (today no more used, arabic in China and cyrillic in neighbourg are used instead).
Are you trying to play catch 22? The data cannot be input into wikidata under the correct code unless it's approved and added here, but to approve a code and add it, it is necessary for the code to first be used inside wikidata?
And at the same time, both cmg and mvf are missing, i fight for 5 years for having at least one them now. but it looks more and more like there is interest to avoid theme? Still don't understand why?
I corrected also the name in cyrillic mongolism, this is not the Mongolian meta language (only mn meta-language is supported for now)
, but only the Khalkha variant. The 3 languages are unsupported.
I'm not sure if I understand where is it stuck. I appears to go in circles. As far as I can see, mvf was added for lexemes. It can be added for values, too. If there are cases where cmg and mvf would be different, cmg can be added, too. Am I missing something obvious?
cmg is often similar to mvf, but not sure it is always the case, as mvf is still a living language, cmg a medieval one.
I don't know what is missing, in wich system parti, but it can't be added in values for now.
It was created at time of Chinggis Khaan so could be anachronic to use mvf (mongolian of china) to words that are created/used in Mongolian empire even before they start to conquest China. I believe He conquest Beijing, but it was in Khitan empire at his time, that's, his several generation later son, Khubilai that make it capital of whole China (about 1270).
Do you know at least how to use mvf now, because I still can't use it a standard way and still need to put an unsupported language tag?
I suggest to replace latin by english in name in its original language here : https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1048 well the current script is already wrong, as lower case characters was created in about 6th~7th century, but we don't care about this isn't it?
Wikidata just need to be a garbage with inconsistent data...
If you choose a language (which is a Wikibase item) I can choose mvf as a spelling variant.
The language is a Wikibase Item, so if the language isn't available, then an item needs to be created for that.