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Create namespace alias MOD: for Module: on Commons
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Description

Following T236352 the Commons community has voted on some more namespace aliases:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Village_pump/Proposals&oldid=373064629#Namespace_redirects_TEM_and_MOD

Please create namespace aliases TEM: for Template and MOD: for Module:. Perhaps @Urbanecm wants to create these this as well? (he knows the procedure)

Update: Support for TEM: has likely vanished since we learned it's a language code. (see also comments here)

Event Timeline

Restricted Application added subscribers: Liuxinyu970226, Aklapper. · View Herald TranscriptSun, Nov 3, 8:17 AM
AlexisJazz updated the task description. (Show Details)Sun, Nov 3, 8:19 AM
Masumrezarock100 added a subscriber: Masumrezarock100.

Perhaps @Urbanecm wants to create these as well? (he knows the procedure)

Well he is a sysadmin after all.

Perhaps @Urbanecm wants to create these as well? (he knows the procedure)

Anyone can upload a patch for this. It's wgNamespaceAliases in wmf-config/InitialiseSettings.php from operations/mediawiki-config repository. It's nearly as same as other config changes. The script you might remember me running is to make sure all pages starting with TEM: will be now in Template: namespace, and all deployers should know they should run it after such change.

Perhaps @Urbanecm wants to create these as well? (he knows the procedure)

Well he is a sysadmin after all.

I mean, he also added CAT: recently.

Perhaps @Urbanecm wants to create these as well? (he knows the procedure)

Anyone can upload a patch for this. It's wgNamespaceAliases in wmf-config/InitialiseSettings.php from operations/mediawiki-config repository. It's nearly as same as other config changes. The script you might remember me running is to make sure all pages starting with TEM: will be now in Template: namespace, and all deployers should know they should run it after such change.

I don't mind if anyone else does it, I just figured it might be easier for you because you recently performed this procedure.

IIRC , we're not meant to create aliases for valid language codes, of which TEM is the one for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temne_language
(I can't quickly find if/where that general rule is documented.)
MOD should be ok, as it's the code for the extinct language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobilian per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_639:m

IIRC , we're not meant to create aliases for valid language codes, of which TEM is the one for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temne_language
(I can't quickly find if/where that general rule is documented.)
MOD should be ok, as it's the code for the extinct language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobilian per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_639:m

So it's realistic that tem.wikipedia.org will be created some day? (2.5 million first-language speakers.. that's 5 times more than fy.wikipedia.org!)

4nn1l2 claimed this task.Tue, Nov 5, 8:22 AM
4nn1l2 added a comment.Tue, Nov 5, 9:27 AM

We should have stuck to the original proposal, i.e., T for Template. T is not a language code nor a Wikimedia project code.

Masumrezarock100 added a comment.EditedTue, Nov 5, 9:44 AM

@4nn1l2 T is very short. I am afraid existing mainspace page may conflict with it.

@Masumrezarock100 If German Wikipedia can use P for Portal and H for Help, why can't Commons use T for Template? Besides, English Wiktionary, Hindi Wikipedia, Italian Wikipedia, Italian Wiktionary, Russian projects (Wikipedia, Wikibooks, Wikiquote, etc), Chinese projects (Wikipedia, Wikiquote, etc), etc already use T for Template.

@Masumrezarock100 If German Wikipedia can use P for Portal and H for Help, why can't Commons use T for Template? Besides, English Wiktionary, Hindi Wikipedia, Italian Wikipedia, Italian Wiktionary, Russian projects (Wikipedia, Wikibooks, Wikiquote, etc), Chinese projects (Wikipedia, Wikiquote, etc), etc already use T for Template.

Yes, but those are small wikis, they don't have much pages to worry about site-wide namespace redirect. Unlike those Wikis, Commons are much more large and have more pages. Also it's not like we can make exemption for some main namespace pages.

4nn1l2 added a comment.Tue, Nov 5, 7:16 PM

Yes, but those are small wikis

German Wikipedia is definitely not a small wiki.

Typing T at the search bar returns page T on Commons. But typing T: there, enables template namespace. There will be no interference.

Masumrezarock100 added a comment.EditedWed, Nov 6, 2:00 AM

Yes, but those are small wikis

German Wikipedia is definitely not a small wiki.
Typing T at the search bar returns page T on Commons. But typing T: there, enables template namespace. There will be no interference.

Yeah, having the search box recognize those namespaces would be a better idea than creating site-wide redirects. I remember there was already a task on phabricator, but I can't find it. @AlexisJazz might know which one is that.

Yes, but those are small wikis

German Wikipedia is definitely not a small wiki.
Typing T at the search bar returns page T on Commons. But typing T: there, enables template namespace. There will be no interference.

Yeah, having the search box recognize those namespaces would be a better idea than creating site-wide redirects. I remember there was already a task on phabricator, but I can't find it. @AlexisJazz might know which one is that.

T185126 ?

I'll create a proposal for T: anyway. If itwiki, hiwiki, zhwiki and ruwiki already use it, at least a WMF-wide solution would have to be found if the WMF ever decides to use T: as interwiki.

Btw: dewiki does NOT use T: for template.

Btw: dewiki does NOT use T: for template.

Nobody said that. German Wikipedia does use P: for Portal and H: for Help namespaces.

Clearly all these Latin letters (P, H, and T) have their own articles on the German Wikipedia. So they also face the same problem as we do on Commons. Maybe WMF decides to start a new project with the interwiki P in the future! But let's not be so concerned about future.

Btw: dewiki does NOT use T: for template.

Nobody said that. German Wikipedia does use P: for Portal and H: for Help namespaces.
Clearly all these Latin letters (P, H, and T) have their own articles on the German Wikipedia. So they also face the same problem as we do on Commons.

There is no problem, as long as a page doesn't start with T: (including the colon). Such a page would be considered to be in NS_TEMPLATE after implementing the alias change. There is absolutely no problem in having a page called just T, just as there is no problem in a page called Wikipedia, which is also a namespace name/alias at all Wikipedias.

Maybe WMF decides to start a new project with the interwiki P in the future! But let's not be so concerned about future.

If that would happen, it would be their job to solve all the conflicts. However, it's not foreseeable - while wiki creation happens considerably more often than a new project family.

Quiddity removed a subscriber: Quiddity.Thu, Nov 7, 3:35 AM

Wait? What? Creating all sorts of aliases for namespaces solves what problem exactly? It collides with language codes. The CAT thing shouldn't have been created.

Masumrezarock100 added a comment.EditedSun, Nov 10, 1:27 AM

Wait? What? Creating all sorts of aliases for namespaces solves what problem exactly? It collides with language codes. The CAT thing shouldn't have been created.

Lazy people don't want to type the whole namespace name. That's why these namespace redirects are asked to be created. If you that opposing this task, feel free to reach out to the Commons Community at Village pump (technical). And don't forget to list all pros and cons.

I also do not think namespaces are necessary, I find them confusing especially when used in some permanent links.

Wait? What? Creating all sorts of aliases for namespaces solves what problem exactly? It collides with language codes. The CAT thing shouldn't have been created.

Lazy people don't want to type the whole namespace name. That's why fhese namespace redirects are asked to be created. If you that opposing this task, feel free to reach out to the Commons Community at Village pump (technical). And don't forget to list all pros and cons.

It's the other way around. A change like this needs community consensus. I don't consider having a straw poll in some hidden corner of Commons open for about a week to be true consensus.

Masumrezarock100 added a comment.EditedSun, Nov 10, 1:39 PM

I do not consider VPP as a "hidden corner''. For your information, that CAT redirect was created after "a community discussion" which was opened for months and many have commented there. If you never heard of it, it's your fault or we failed to advertise it. Just adding Community-consensus-needed tag again doesn't help. Many tasks that are tagged with Community-consensus-needed have been stalled for months. Reason? Because no one approached the wiki's community in question. Feel free to write up a proposal with good arguments and post it on VPP and then advertise it using mass-message/watchlist-notice (watchlist notice might be preferable as it would not be "spamming"). And after you have done so, feel free to re-add this tag. Otherwise you are just wasting our time. Thanks.

That's turning the world around. Someone is lazy and wants to have these aliases. That person should have gotten proper consensus. I don't think @4nn1l2 is going to touch this before making sure real consensus is achieved.

Masumrezarock100 added a subscriber: Quiddity.EditedSun, Nov 10, 6:23 PM

Well, I am not the one who closed that discussion and that certain "someone" isn't me.
It seems our opinions differ very much. Especially opinions by @4nn1l2, @Multichill, @Jarekt. The points raised by @Quiddity are valid, tem is a valid language code of Temme. But currently there is no WMF project with Temme language. But it maybe created in future if the language committee approves it. I think a better option would be to start a new proposal about this. CAT has already been created and the discussion was opened for months, and we didn't see anymore consensus coming out of that discussion. And it doesn't seem like CAT is a valid language code either. So we can leave that one alone.

Steps:

  • Write a proposal about this that will list all pros and cons.
  • Edit https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/COM:VPP or create a separate discussion page and save it.
  • Go to https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:WatchlistNotice and edit the page and add a neutral advertisement of the said discussion. (One has to be an admin to do this). English Wikipedia already does this for advertising RFA, ArbCom and for major RfCs. This will likely attract many participants. If someone doesn't like those notices, they can just disable it in their preferences.

Someone will have to do this. And that certain someone won't be me.

@AlexisJazz Are you up for this task?

Pinging some of the participants of the previous discussions who have phabricator accounts to notify them about this. @Davey2010 @Ahmad252 . Apologies if I missed someone, I couldn't find their phabricator username.

Quiddity removed a subscriber: Quiddity.Sun, Nov 10, 6:48 PM

That's turning the world around. Someone is lazy and wants to have these aliases. That person should have gotten proper consensus. I don't think @4nn1l2 is going to touch this before making sure real consensus is achieved.

This makes no sense. Are you expecting people to print newspaper ads or something to announce proposals?

@AlexisJazz Are you up for this task?

I don't see the point. At the time of voting we were unaware TEM is a language code. (now we've learned to check for both 2-letter and 3-letter codes..) TEM has 2.5 million first-language speakers, five times as much as West Frisian which already has its own Wikipedia, Wiktionary and Wikibooks. I think a proposal for TEM, knowing what we know now, has a snowball's chance in hell. I'd even oppose it myself.

Masumrezarock100 added a comment.EditedMon, Nov 11, 4:19 AM

@AlexisJazz Are you up for this task?

I don't see the point. At the time of voting we were unaware TEM is a language code. (now we've learned to check for both 2-letter and 3-letter codes..) TEM has 2.5 million first-language speakers, five times as much as West Frisian which already has its own Wikipedia, Wiktionary and Wikibooks. I think a proposal for TEM, knowing what we know now, has a snowball's chance in hell. I'd even oppose it myself.

Sorry for not being clear enough. Actually I suggested a new proposal for T instead of TEM (as 4n said). And about other namespace aliases that we discussed before (except CAT, which has already been created) and about other possible namespace aliases that the community wants. It seems we had some opposition and never had the true consensus. Discussion like this needs more participants and more time to close. No one never really pointed out that TEM is a valid language code in that proposal.

That's turning the world around. Someone is lazy and wants to have these aliases. That person should have gotten proper consensus. I don't think @4nn1l2 is going to touch this before making sure real consensus is achieved.

This makes no sense. Are you expecting people to print newspaper ads or something to announce proposals?

Well not really for small proposals but those that affects the whole site. English Wikipedia already has an RFC bot to announce new RFCs to people who are interested and they use watchlist notice too.

Urbanecm changed the task status from Open to Stalled.Mon, Nov 11, 6:53 AM

Please leave this disucssion to the wiki. Only technical details should be dicussed at Phabricator. Given there are doubts on consensus, I'm stalling this task. Also, given I'm not familier with Commons' policies much, could you please get a bureaucrat to confirm the result? Thanks.

AlexisJazz added a comment.EditedMon, Nov 11, 11:41 AM

Please leave this disucssion to the wiki. Only technical details should be dicussed at Phabricator. Given there are doubts on consensus, I'm stalling this task. Also, given I'm not familier with Commons' policies much, could you please get a bureaucrat to confirm the result? Thanks.

We don't use bureaucrats for that. We don't even use admins for that.

Support for TEM: has vanished since we learned it's a language code, but MOD: can still be added.

AlexisJazz renamed this task from Create namespace aliases TEM: and MOD: for Template: and Module: on Commons to Create namespace alias MOD: for Module: on Commons.Mon, Nov 11, 11:45 AM
AlexisJazz updated the task description. (Show Details)
AlexisJazz updated the task description. (Show Details)Mon, Nov 11, 11:47 AM

Please leave this disucssion to the wiki. Only technical details should be dicussed at Phabricator. Given there are doubts on consensus, I'm stalling this task. Also, given I'm not familier with Commons' policies much, could you please get a bureaucrat to confirm the result? Thanks.

We don't use bureaucrats for that. We don't even use admins for that.

Well, the traditional role of bureaucrats it to determine if consensus was reached (mostly, for permission-related votings). Given there are doubts if consensus has been reached, I'd like to have an additional way of verification, so I can be sure that's what Wikimedia Commons want. So far, I always a bureaucrat to advice - since they're already working in the area of consensus and are generally trusted by the whole community.

Support for TEM: has vanished since we learned it's a language code, but MOD: can still be added.

Please leave this disucssion to the wiki. Only technical details should be dicussed at Phabricator. Given there are doubts on consensus, I'm stalling this task. Also, given I'm not familier with Commons' policies much, could you please get a bureaucrat to confirm the result? Thanks.

We don't use bureaucrats for that. We don't even use admins for that.

Well, the traditional role of bureaucrats it to determine if consensus was reached (mostly, for permission-related votings). Given there are doubts if consensus has been reached, I'd like to have an additional way of verification, so I can be sure that's what Wikimedia Commons want. So far, I always a bureaucrat to advice - since they're already working in the area of consensus and are generally trusted by the whole community.

I don't think that's quite true. My faith in bureaucrats is limited. There is one bureaucrat who I have seen acting incompetently on multiple occasions, one who took a decision that appeared to be partisan (the exact motivation remains unclear to this day though) and another who seems to fail to process criticism. In addition there are two who barely made 100 non-minor non-caption edits this year, so their presence can't really be counted on. That's 5 in total. Considering we have only 7 bureaucrats, that's a bit of an issue. And I know at least one other trusted contributor who has reservations about handing more power to bureaucrats. And I'm fairly sure I'd find more if I simply asked.

And out of all 7 bureaucrats, there are only two who posted on https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard this year. One of them made a single contribution of granting someone Interface administrator. The other one has decided to no longer assist me. The effective result is that if I need a bureaucrat.. well, luckily I hardly ever do. So I'd rather you didn't force me.

We could ask a bureaucrat, but this would essentially have no real value on Commons. Bureaucrats do the official closing of requests for some advanced permissions as that is coded in policy, but even that isn't as solid anymore as it used to be. Case in point: Closure by a trusted user and the enforcement of said closure. Granted what happened there was just silly, even if nobody had closed that discussion it would have been wildly improper to continue tool use. And the discussion was later re-closed by a bureaucrat. But bureaucrats on Commons, while having their role, don't seem to be the be-all and end-all.

If you want more confirmation, I don't really have an answer. Activity in discussions and proposals on Commons is limited. And Multichill just seems angry he missed the proposal.

That's turning the world around. Someone is lazy and wants to have these aliases. That person should have gotten proper consensus. I don't think @4nn1l2 is going to touch this before making sure real consensus is achieved.

This makes no sense. Are you expecting people to print newspaper ads or something to announce proposals?

Well not really for small proposals but those that affects the whole site. English Wikipedia already has an RFC bot to announce new RFCs to people who are interested and they use watchlist notice too.

I'm not saying I oppose any such thing, but we have nothing in place. RfC's on Commons are dead, we have no bot, no policy or guideline to distinguish between "small proposals" and "proposals that affect the whole site" and no watchlist notices. @Majora recently made a proposal to use watchlist notices for things like RfA's but not for proposals.

Dcljr added a subscriber: Dcljr.Mon, Nov 11, 8:38 PM

Well not really for small proposals but those that affects the whole site.

FWIW, I think it's hyperbole to say this kind of change "affects the whole site". This would be providing an alternate way to refer to some namespaces. That's all. No one will be forced to change anything they are currently doing. Some people (those who know about the option) will simply be able to do things in a new way. No big deal.

If the change removed the ability to do something a particular way, that would be different.