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Add Ojibwe (oj), to Names.php
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Description

Please add the label "Ojibwe" for the language code "oj", as previously done for another language in T263968.

Background: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojibwe_language

Event Timeline

MarcoAurelio added a subscriber: MarcoAurelio.

Unnasigning from myself as I am no longer active in MediaWiki development.

Not a duplicate; Ojibwe (oj) is not the same as Ojibwain (ojb).

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojibwe_language - ISO 639-3 ojb is ISO 639-1 oj.

Not so; "oj" is Ojibwe; "ojb" is Northwestern Ojibwa, one of several dialects, as that very page - which I cited in my original ticket, above - explains.

Furthermore, that page states that the (inclusive) ISO 639-3 code for Ojibwe is "oji".

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwestern_Ojibwa - from which: "ISO 639-3 = ojb"; "Northwestern Ojibwe (also known as Northern Ojibwa, Ojibway, Ojibwe) is a dialect of the Ojibwe language"

This is like saying we don't need "en" because we have "en-au".

Valid point, thanks! Maybe this should be dup'ed the other way round then...

4nn1l2 triaged this task as Low priority.
4nn1l2 added a subscriber: 4nn1l2.

I'll do it.

Adding a language code to Names.php makes it immediately a content language for Wikidata etc. and an interface language for all MediaWiki installs; normally these kinds of requests go through the TWN team, as adding the . The linked task for nia was landed after the original content import from TWN, to avoid breaking things. I'd recommend talking to them first.

normally these kinds of requests go through the TWN team

We need clarity as to the proper channel for requesting the addition of languages, when needed on Wikispecies, so that they can be added in a timely manner.

I was given to understand that the correct process was to raise a ticket such as this. There are likely to be further requests of this nature in future.

I have no idea who the "TWN team," are, nor how to contact them.

Please can someone clarify the agreed process? Or if necessary can those involved agree one?

Alternatively, perhaps Template:Vn on Wikispecies [1] should be made to pick up language labels from somewhere else (Wikidata?), instead of the current source?

as adding the .

?

[1] https://species.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:VN

normally these kinds of requests go through the TWN team

We need clarity as to the proper channel for requesting the addition of languages, when needed on Wikispecies, so that they can be added in a timely manner.

I was given to understand that the correct process was to raise a ticket such as this. There are likely to be further requests of this nature in future.

It is.

I have no idea who the "TWN team," are, nor how to contact them.

That's fine, you shouldn't need to. My note is for people who are thinking of taking on this task; it's technically just editing a file, but in practice has major, permanent ramifications, and so needs to be carefully co-ordinated, like other such requests.

We need clarity as to the proper channel for requesting the addition of languages, when needed on Wikispecies, so that they can be added in a timely manner.

I was given to understand that the correct process was to raise a ticket such as this. There are likely to be further requests of this nature in future.

It is.

And yet, more than six months on, this request has still not been actioned.

@Raymond, @Amire80: Would any of you maybe know where the process (?) is documented? See https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T277505#7328596 and followup comments. Thanks in advance.

@Raymond, @Amire80: Would any of you maybe know where the process (?) is documented? See https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T277505#7328596 and followup comments. Thanks in advance.

There's this page: https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Add_a_wiki

The page is about something else, but in practice, its first section covers language codes handling.

About oj, I asked the original person who requested oj whether ojb is appropriate, and received no reply. See https://species.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:VN#cr_and_oj .

A few months ago I discussed this with people who know Ojibwe, and I understood from them that the relationship between ojb and oj is not like between Australian English and English, but more like between English and Anglic languages; and furthermore, ojb is the most widely understood and most frequently written variety. That's why I think ojb can and should be used. But if somebody who actually knows Ojibwe languages and wants to write in them thinks that this is wrong, please do tell.

@CJLippert, I saw your post at T268431#6673192. Could you please comment here as well?

That's fine, you shouldn't need to. My note is for people who are thinking of taking on this task; it's technically just editing a file, but in practice has major, permanent ramifications, and so needs to be carefully co-ordinated, like other such requests.

If possible, I would like to do this task, but I don't have a clue about TWN. Please, could you use the complete name rather than the initials?

This is my understanding.
oj meaning "Ojibwe" really describes Anishinaabemowin, an Algonquian dialect continuum that spans from Quebec to British Columbia in Canada and Michigan to Montana in the United States. How that dialect continuum gets divided and what gets included as part of that dialect continuum is up to much debate. Some include pot (Potawatomi) and alq (Algonquin) in that dialect continuum while others do not. But generally within that dialect continuum, the prominently recognized dialects that are mutally intelligible among neighboring dialects but that intelligibility diminishes farther apart they are includes otw (Ottawa or Southeastern Anishinaabemowin), ciw (Chippewa or Southwestern Anishinaabemowin), ojs (Severn Ojibwa, Oji-Cree or Northern Anishinaabemowin), ojg (Mississauga Ojibwa or Eastern Anishinaabemowin), ojc (Central Ojibwa, or more accurately Central Anishinaabemowin consisting of Nipissing Ojibwa and North of Superior Ojibwe, two very distinct dialects lumped together), ojb (Ojibwa, or Northwestern Anishinaabemowin, and ojw (Saulteaux or Western Anishinaabemowin), with no dialect codes for transitional dialects such as Berens River Ojibwe, Border Lakes Ojibwa, and Island Lake Oji-Cree.

So, oj should be treated as a marker for a language that falls within the Anishinaabemowin spectrum, while ojb would designate one of the recognized languages within the Anishinaabemowin dialect specturm. If the dialect is specifically known and it has an accepted language code, that language code should be used. If the dialect is not known or the language does not have a specific language code, then the more generalized oj should be used.

The language in Names.php must correspond to the language in the i18n/*.json files, which are synchronized with translatewiki.

What would be the best code for the translations at https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special:Translate&group=mediawiki&language=ojb&filter=translated&action=page ?

In the past I was told that it's ojb by a teacher of a language, but AFAIK, a whole Ojibwe wiki has never been set up, so it's conceivable to change it to on without breaking too many things. But please be sure that doing this would actually be correct.

If the language of these translations is indeed ojb, then there is no reason to add oj to Names.php.

If the language of these translations is indeed ojb, then there is no reason to add oj to Names.php.

The reason the addition of oj is needed (as I indicated in September 2021, upstream in this discussion), and why I opened this ticket a year ago this week, is that it is required for use on Wikispecies. It has nothing to do with translations in translatewiki.

And I tried to explain several times that the purpose of Names.php is different. Adding a name to Names.php just to make a template on Wikispecies work is not right.

I asked a question about what is actually needed on https://species.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:VN in July 2021 and never got a response.

@Amire80 Could you please say why you removed me as the assignee of this task? I was the person who asked CJLippert to leave a comment here.

And I tried to explain several times that the purpose of Names.php is different.

Where, please?

Adding a name to Names.php just to make a template on Wikispecies work is not right.

And I have explained:

We need clarity as to the proper channel for requesting the addition of languages, when needed on Wikispecies, so that they can be added in a timely manner.

I was given to understand that the correct process was to raise a ticket such as this.

I have also asked, if this is not the correct process, what is? I note that in this discussion, last September, James Forrester asserted that "It is.".

I asked a question about what is actually needed on https://species.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:VN in July 2021 and never got a response.

You asked:

@Molandfreak, can you try ojb instead of oj?

The person you addressed had already stated that "oj" was required., and had begun using it on Wikispecies

@Amire80 Could you please say why you removed me as the assignee of this task? I was the person who asked CJLippert to leave a comment here.

Because it looked like you plan to add oj to Names.php, which is probably not the right thing to do here.

@Molandfreak, can you try ojb instead of oj?

The person you addressed had already stated that "oj" was required., and had begun using it on Wikispecies

Where exactly? Can you link to a diff?

Where exactly?

In the discussion to which you yourself have just said you posted, and which you just linked to.

Where exactly?

In the discussion to which you yourself have just said you posted, and which you just linked to.

I'm sorry, I don't see it there. The last thing there is from 25 July 2021. I'm not familiar with Wikispecies and its templates, and I'll need more information about what you actually want to do with this code there.

I'll need more information about what you actually want to do with this code there.

You're asking that one year to the day since this ticket was opened.

In the original request, you'll see "as previously done for another language in T263968."

In that ticket you'll see reference to T261387, where this was all - supposedly - thrashed out in September 2020.

Once again: I have also asked, if this is not the correct process, what is?

T303379 also refers.

T263968 and T261387 are about Madurese and Nias. The difference between Madurese/Nias and Ojibwe (as oj) is that Madurese and Nias were added to Names.php because they are languages into which the user interface was translated. That's what Names.php is for: a list of languages in which there is full-fledged supported MediaWiki user interface localization.

Since there are no user interface translations into oj, it cannot be added to Names.php. So my question is: in which way are you trying to use oj on Wikispecies, and how does it fail? I don't know where and how the VN template is used and what is supposed to be its correct output when it's used with oj as the parameter.

If the solution for Hadza in T303379 is good, then perhaps the same process with CLDR can be used here, but I'm much less familiar with it.

T263968 and T261387 are also about the process; and show the history of the wider discussion on how to get language names made available when required in Wikispecies.

On Wikispecies, {{VN}} has - for each language - a line like:

-->{{#if:{{{de|}}}|'''{{#language:de}}:'''&nbsp;{{{de}}}<br/>}}<!--

for most languages, that renders the language name in the form:

Deutsch: Schleiereule

(where "Schleiereule" is the value for the relevant parameter, in the instance of {{VN}}, and so not relevant here)

but for oj {{VN}} would currently display "oj:" instead of "Ojibwe:".

Again, this is all in the previous tickets.

perhaps the same process with CLDR can be used here,

T261387 also makes clear that that is not a workable solution; the name "Hadza " is still not displayed by {{VN}} on Wikispecies.

See also my reply to you on this point, dated 25 July 2021, in T283053.

T263968 and T261387 are also about the process; and show the history of the wider discussion on how to get language names made available when required in Wikispecies.

On Wikispecies, {{VN}} has - for each language - a line like:

-->{{#if:{{{de|}}}|'''{{#language:de}}:'''&nbsp;{{{de}}}<br/>}}<!--

for most languages, that renders the language name in the form:

Deutsch: Schleiereule

(where "Schleiereule" is the value for the relevant parameter, in the instance of {{VN}}, and so not relevant here)

but for oj {{VN}} would currently display "oj:" instead of "Ojibwe:".

Again, this is all in the previous tickets.

perhaps the same process with CLDR can be used here,

T261387 also makes clear that that is not a workable solution; the name "Hadza " is still not displayed by {{VN}} on Wikispecies.

A short testpage for Hadza and French: https://species.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Raymond/cldr_test . Feel free to edit the page.

I think the same thing can be done for oj.

I believe, though I have not confirmed, that a quick fix would be to add these names to LocalNamesXX.php in the cldr extension.

Another, more complete fix, would be to bundle the IANA language tag registry names in the extension, giving English names to all defined language codes. This is as far as I know the same data the Babel extension is using as fallback.

I believe, though I have not confirmed, that a quick fix would be to add these names to LocalNamesXX.php in the cldr extension.

Another, more complete fix, would be to bundle the IANA language tag registry names in the extension, giving English names to all defined language codes. This is as far as I know the same data the Babel extension is using as fallback.

See also: T190129: Consolidate language metadata into a 'language-data' library and use in MediaWiki, T168799: Integrate IANA language registry with language-data and MediaWiki (let MediaWiki "knows" all languages with ISO 639-1/2/3 codes)

Because it looked like you plan to add oj to Names.php, which is probably not the right thing to do here.

Thanks! Are you someone with authority in this regard here or just a volunteer?

Because it looked like you plan to add oj to Names.php, which is probably not the right thing to do here.

Thanks! Are you someone with authority in this regard here or just a volunteer?

I don't like talking about "authority" in the wiki world. I've been the main maintainer of Names.php and some related files for the last few years, and I know how it works fairly well. I'm also a Language committee member, although I'm not sure that it means very much here.

Dear @Aklapper, @Amire80 just removed me as the assignee of this task based on his assumptions. Can people just do that? Does he have the authority to do that? I don't understand his remarks and I'm rather upset by his rude behavior.

He claims that he has been "the main maintainer of Names.php and some related files for the last few years", but is he the owner of those files?

@4nn1l2: This was answered in T277505#7913336. I don't think that calls to authority are particularly helpful; see the technical remarks and discussion instead.

The language parser function also uses data from wmgExtraLanguageNames for autonyms. If the goal is to get {{#language:oj}} to work on Wikispecies, adding oj to that config variable for Wikispecies would work without having to enable the language code for every wiki.