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Eliminator not able to edit "cascade-protected" pages despite having the right on urwiki
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Description

I'm an eliminator on the Urdu Wikipedia and was trying to edit سانچہ:خبروں میں located at https://ur.wikipedia.org/wiki/سانچہ:خبروں_میں

Our local page about the eliminators ( https://ur.wikipedia.org/wiki/ویکیپیڈیا:ویکی_بان ) says that they've the "protect" right i.e. "Change protection levels, edit and move protected pages, and edit cascade-protected pages" likewise was asked at the Phab task [[T184607]]. That said, I'm not able to either edit or change the level of protection of such pages. Please fix. However, I do get an option to edit such pages, but can't edit. Screenshots attached.

The local page about User access levels at https://ur.wikipedia.org/wiki/خاص:فہرست_اختیارات_گروہ also says that eliminator has the "protect" right. Please fix.

Event Timeline

AaqibAnjum renamed this task from Eliminator not able to edit "cascade-protected" pages despite having the right to Eliminator not able to edit "cascade-protected" pages despite having the right on urwiki.Apr 27 2021, 2:48 PM
Urbanecm added a subscriber: Urbanecm.

AFAICS, urwiki eliminators only have protect right, not editprotected right. That means they're able to (un)protect pages, but not edit pages that are protected.

Cascade protection is a special kind of protection, and I think it makes sense to require editprotected rather than protect (the string description is a bit confusing, and I would agree it should be clarified).

Should editprotected be granted to eliminators as well?

AFAICS, urwiki eliminators only have protect right, not editprotected right. That means they're able to (un)protect pages, but not edit pages that are protected.

Cascade protection is a special kind of protection, and I think it makes sense to require editprotected rather than protect (the string description is a bit confusing, and I would agree it should be clarified).

Should editprotected be granted to eliminators as well?

Doesn't "protect" mean that they can edit pages that are cascade-protected and 'editprotected' means to edit pages that are completely protected? (A right that admins have). I'm a bit confused about the explanations to both of these terms. Per what we have stated in the local policy about eliminators, they should be able to edit pages that are just cascade-protected. Thanks

Nonetheless, I'm also unable to change protection of that page that I've linked above and that's just cascade-protected but semi-protected on its own? How do we see that? Shouldn't protect be enough here then? Troubling issue indeed.

I don't know about other wikis but since our policy has maintained that eliminators should be able to edit pages that are cascade protected, and if it requires to have editprotected, then they should have it. I don't think this needs a new consensus because it is already clarified over a number of places on Urdu Wikipedia including https://ur.wikipedia.org/wiki/خاص:فہرست_اختیارات_گروہ

Nonetheless, I'm also unable to change protection of that page that I've linked above

protect only allows you to (un)protect pages you are able to edit. That is for security purposes: for instance, meta.wikimedia.org has pages that can be edited only by central notice admins (CNAs). Most admins aren't a CNA, but if they were able to unprotect that page, the CNA-only protection level would be useful – it would let admins in anyway :-).

and that's just cascade-protected but semi-protected on its own?

Cascade protection takes precedence. Right now, https://ur.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%B3%D8%A7%D9%86%DA%86%DB%81:%D8%AE%D8%A8%D8%B1%D9%88%DA%BA_%D9%85%DB%8C%DA%BA is effectively fully protected. You can see it by trying to edit the page in an anonymous window. https://ur.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D8%B3%D8%A7%D9%86%DA%86%DB%81:%D8%AE%D8%A8%D8%B1%D9%88%DA%BA_%D9%85%DB%8C%DA%BA&action=edit&uselang=en shows this to me:

Alternatively, you can see it via the API: https://ur.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=query&format=json&prop=info&titles=%D8%B3%D8%A7%D9%86%DA%86%DB%81%3A%D8%AE%D8%A8%D8%B1%D9%88%DA%BA_%D9%85%DB%8C%DA%BA&inprop=protection. This API call shows:

"protection": [
{
"type": "edit",
"level": "autoconfirmed",
"expiry": "infinity"
},
{
"type": "move",
"level": "autoconfirmed",
"expiry": "infinity"
},
{
"type": "edit",
"level": "sysop",
"expiry": "infinity",
"source": "صفحۂ اول"
},
{
"type": "move",
"level": "sysop",
"expiry": "infinity",
"source": "صفحۂ اول"
}
]

As you can see, the page is now protected two times for editing/moving. One is the semiprotection that was applied on that page individually, second is the protection that comes from the cascade.

In similar cases, MediaWiki picks the strongest protection (in this case, full protection), which means it requires editprotected to be able to edit it.

How do we see that? Shouldn't protect be enough here then? Troubling issue indeed.

No, because the page is now fully protected, and editing fully protected pages requires editprotected. Protect should never be enough for you to edit pages, it should only allow you to (un)protect pages (which you are able to edit).

I don't know about other wikis but since our policy has maintained that eliminators should be able to edit pages that are cascade protected, and if it requires to have editprotected, then they should have it.

Could you link to a policy that says this, please? Then I can change the right assignments :).

By the way, should eliminators be able to protect pages?

Nonetheless, I'm also unable to change protection of that page that I've linked above

protect only allows you to (un)protect pages you are able to edit. That is for security purposes: for instance, meta.wikimedia.org has pages that can be edited only by central notice admins (CNAs). Most admins aren't a CNA, but if they were able to unprotect that page, the CNA-only protection level would be useful – it would let admins in anyway :-).

and that's just cascade-protected but semi-protected on its own?

Cascade protection takes precedence. Right now, https://ur.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%B3%D8%A7%D9%86%DA%86%DB%81:%D8%AE%D8%A8%D8%B1%D9%88%DA%BA_%D9%85%DB%8C%DA%BA is effectively fully protected. You can see it by trying to edit the page in an anonymous window. https://ur.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D8%B3%D8%A7%D9%86%DA%86%DB%81:%D8%AE%D8%A8%D8%B1%D9%88%DA%BA_%D9%85%DB%8C%DA%BA&action=edit&uselang=en shows this to me:

Alternatively, you can see it via the API: https://ur.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=query&format=json&prop=info&titles=%D8%B3%D8%A7%D9%86%DA%86%DB%81%3A%D8%AE%D8%A8%D8%B1%D9%88%DA%BA_%D9%85%DB%8C%DA%BA&inprop=protection. This API call shows:

"protection": [
{
"type": "edit",
"level": "autoconfirmed",
"expiry": "infinity"
},
{
"type": "move",
"level": "autoconfirmed",
"expiry": "infinity"
},
{
"type": "edit",
"level": "sysop",
"expiry": "infinity",
"source": "صفحۂ اول"
},
{
"type": "move",
"level": "sysop",
"expiry": "infinity",
"source": "صفحۂ اول"
}
]

As you can see, the page is now protected two times for editing/moving. One is the semiprotection that was applied on that page individually, second is the protection that comes from the cascade.

In similar cases, MediaWiki picks the strongest protection (in this case, full protection), which means it requires editprotected to be able to edit it.

How do we see that? Shouldn't protect be enough here then? Troubling issue indeed.

No, because the page is now fully protected, and editing fully protected pages requires editprotected. Protect should never be enough for you to edit pages, it should only allow you to (un)protect pages (which you are able to edit).

I don't know about other wikis but since our policy has maintained that eliminators should be able to edit pages that are cascade protected, and if it requires to have editprotected, then they should have it.

Could you link to a policy that says this, please? Then I can change the right assignments :).

By the way, should eliminators be able to protect pages?

Thanks for this much. Yes, fine in "semi-protecting" pages (I didn't see any other option while protecting any page i.e. eliminators aren't able to fully protect any page and this seems legit). https://ur.wikipedia.org/wiki/ویکیپیڈیا:ویکی_بان rightly says (1), be able to edit pages that are subject to cascade protection.

[...]
Thanks for this much. Yes, fine in "semi-protecting" pages (I didn't see any other option while protecting any page i.e. eliminators aren't able to fully protect any page and this seems legit). https://ur.wikipedia.org/wiki/ویکیپیڈیا:ویکی_بان rightly says (1), be able to edit pages that are subject to cascade protection.

If we grant eliminators the ability to edit fully protected page, they will be able to also fully protect pages (unless we revoke protect from them, but that will also mean they will not be able to semiprotect pages).

[...]
Thanks for this much. Yes, fine in "semi-protecting" pages (I didn't see any other option while protecting any page i.e. eliminators aren't able to fully protect any page and this seems legit). https://ur.wikipedia.org/wiki/ویکیپیڈیا:ویکی_بان rightly says (1), be able to edit pages that are subject to cascade protection.

If we grant eliminators the ability to edit fully protected page, they will be able to also fully protect pages (unless we revoke protect from them, but that will also mean they will not be able to semiprotect pages).

That means, if eliminators need to edit the pages subject to cascading protection, they need to have both the "protect" and the "editprotected". It'll also enable them to edit pages that are subject to full protection? AFAICS

In task description:

the "protect" right i.e. "Change protection levels, edit and move protected pages, and edit cascade-protected pages"

That is no longer true, it is now: "Change protection levels and edit cascade-protected pages"

https://ur.wikipedia.org/wiki/ویکیپیڈیا:ویکی_بان rightly says (1), be able to edit pages that are subject to cascade protection.

Maybe there is a understanding problem. Cascade protection always is on the top of a protection, not a protection by its own.
Saying that someone should be able to edit cascade protection pages needs to specify which level of protection. Adding editprotected to the group allows to edit all protected pages (expect interface and user js) including the casade protected pages. The protect right is additional needed for cascade protected pages to avoid that everyone can protect pages by transclude them from the cascade protected page. It is not the only right needed for them.

Looking at all existing cascade protection - https://ur.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%AE%D8%A7%D8%B5:%D9%85%D8%AD%D9%81%D9%88%D8%B8_%D8%B5%D9%81%D8%AD%D8%A7%D8%AA?namespace=&type=edit&level=0&wpfilters%5B%5D=cascadeonly&size-mode=min&size=&uselang=en
It says fully protected, cascading or semi protected, cascading

In task description:

the "protect" right i.e. "Change protection levels, edit and move protected pages, and edit cascade-protected pages"

That is no longer true, it is now: "Change protection levels and edit cascade-protected pages"

https://ur.wikipedia.org/wiki/ویکیپیڈیا:ویکی_بان rightly says (1), be able to edit pages that are subject to cascade protection.

Maybe there is a understanding problem. Cascade protection always is on the top of a protection, not a protection by its own.
Saying that someone should be able to edit cascade protection pages needs to specify which level of protection. Adding editprotected to the group allows to edit all protected pages (expect interface and user js) including the casade protected pages. The protect right is additional needed for cascade protected pages to avoid that everyone can protect pages by transclude them from the cascade protected page. It is not the only right needed for them.

Looking at all existing cascade protection - https://ur.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%AE%D8%A7%D8%B5:%D9%85%D8%AD%D9%81%D9%88%D8%B8_%D8%B5%D9%81%D8%AD%D8%A7%D8%AA?namespace=&type=edit&level=0&wpfilters%5B%5D=cascadeonly&size-mode=min&size=&uselang=en
It says fully protected, cascading or semi protected, cascading

I get this. As of now, urwiki eliminators are only allowed to edit semi-protected, cascading and they are not allowed to edit fully protected, cascading pages. Likewise, they're only able to semi-protect pages (those plain or those which have semi-protect cascade protection) that they can edit and they aren't able to change protection of fully protected, cascading pages. That said, I don't find any problem if urwiki eliminators are granted editprotected despite having the protect, because as of now we have just two eliminators.

Do we have any update on the request?

Could you announce this on the project's village pump? Then, if there are no objections within some time, I think we can go ahead.

Could you announce this on the project's village pump? Then, if there are no objections within some time, I think we can go ahead.

Done. I've posted a message and I'll report here after a week perhaps? Thanks.

Could you announce this on the project's village pump? Then, if there are no objections within some time, I think we can go ahead.

Done. I've posted a message and I'll revert here after a week perhaps? Thanks.

I guess you meant "report" rather than "revert"?

Would you mind posting the link here, so I can monitor the discussion? Thanks.

Could you announce this on the project's village pump? Then, if there are no objections within some time, I think we can go ahead.

Done. I've posted a message and I'll revert here after a week perhaps? Thanks.

I guess you meant "report" rather than "revert"?

Would you mind posting the link here, so I can monitor the discussion? Thanks.

Yes, my bad. The link is https://ur.wikipedia.org/wiki/ویکیپیڈیا:دیوان_عام/تجاویز#ویکی_بان_اور_آبشاری_حفاظت_کے_حامل_صفحات

It has been around a week since this proposal was posted on the village pump of Urdu Wikipedia, at https://ur.wikipedia.org/wiki/ویکیپیڈیا:دیوان_عام/تجاویز#ویکی_بان_اور_آبشاری_حفاظت_کے_حامل_صفحات

So far, there seems to be no one opposing the proposal. No comment since last three days. Seems enough now. Please proceed. Thanks

Pinging @Urbanecm after having received no response from 9 May 2021.

Change 692288 had a related patch set uploaded (by Urbanecm; author: Urbanecm):

[operations/mediawiki-config@master] urwiki: Grant `editprotected` to eliminators

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/692288

Urbanecm moved this task from Backlog to To deploy on the Wikimedia-Site-requests board.

It has been around a week since this proposal was posted on the village pump of Urdu Wikipedia, at https://ur.wikipedia.org/wiki/ویکیپیڈیا:دیوان_عام/تجاویز#ویکی_بان_اور_آبشاری_حفاظت_کے_حامل_صفحات

So far, there seems to be no one opposing the proposal. No comment since last three days. Seems enough now. Please proceed. Thanks

Let's do it!

Change 692288 merged by jenkins-bot:

[operations/mediawiki-config@master] urwiki: Grant `editprotected` to eliminators

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/692288

Mentioned in SAL (#wikimedia-operations) [2021-05-17T11:22:01Z] <urbanecm@deploy1002> Synchronized wmf-config/InitialiseSettings.php: 32e43439c88147439109403ea2805da648fef97f: urwiki: Grant editprotected to eliminators (T281274) (duration: 01m 08s)