AdminCc jeremyb added by jeremyb

AdminCc thehelpfulone added by jeremyb

AdminCc jalexander added by jeremyb

Cc dzahn added by jeremyb

+mailman people

Status changed from 'new' to 'open' by RT_System

Reference by ticket #3173 added by jeremyb

Cc dzahn deleted by dzahn

Hi,
thanks for the mail. Though, none of the listed lists are administered by
Operations, either by OIT or by individual other people or they are not really
mailing lists, but Google groups instead. Those would also be handled by OIT.
So <techsupport at wikimedia>@wikimedia.org wrote:

<design at lists>

<wmfproduct at lists>
<emgt at wikimedia> displays as "WMF" should be "EMGT"

No such list emgt

<engineering at lists>
<ux at wikimedia>

No such list ux

<wmfsf at lists>
<wmfall at lists>
<wikitech-l at lists>

Status changed from 'open' to 'rejected' by dzahn

On 2014-10-03 01:10:41, dzahn wrote:

thanks for the mail. Though, none of the listed lists are administered
by
Operations, either by OIT or by individual other people or they are
not really
mailing lists, but Google groups instead. Those would also be handled
by OIT.

I believe that some mailman lists have their current (sometimes confusing) titles mostly because there was a coordinated retitling campaign at some point.
We should first have some consensus on how to choose these settings first before going on another campaign to change them all.
btw, where is the latest campaign documented? do we have anything written about how to choose a title (not name) for a new list?
(if Jared wanted to change just a couple lists then it would be fine to go to the list admins. but, IMO this is a systemic issue (and broader than those specific examples he mentioned) which is better handled by mailman folks)

Status changed from 'rejected' to 'open' by RT_System

Status changed from 'open' to 'new' by jeremyb

Given to thehelpfulone by jeremyb

Hi Jared,
While the Ops team maintains the mailing lists server, it doesn't create or
maintain all mailing lists, and certainly doesn't dictate the naming of them.
Lists are used by a wide variety of groups, both community and staff. The
display name is normally configured by the list admins, and we're not going to
upset a lot of them by overriding that without a clear consensus in a public
discussion.
I'd also say that the reasoning of "Gmail shows it this way" is somewhat
questionable - other mail services and programs may do things differently.
But anyway, if you'd like to see this changed, please start a public discussion
about it, and work with some of the volunteers currently involved with
maintaining mailing lists / Mailman, such as TheHelpfulOne who's already been
mentioned on this ticket.
As this isn't really a request for Ops, I'll close this ticket.
On Thu Oct 02 18:52:30 2014, <jared.zimmerman at wikimedia> wrote:

in gmail the "first name" of someone is shown in the to field on incoming
messages, there are some lists that have unclear and confusing names

<design at lists>

<wmfproduct at lists>

<emgt at wikimedia> displays as "WMF" should be "EMGT"

<engineering at lists>

<ux at wikimedia>

<wmfsf at lists>

<wmfall at lists> sometimes displays at "staff" and sometimes as
"wmfall" should be "Staff"
<wikitech-l at lists> sometimes displays at "Wikitech-l" and
sometimes as "wikimedia" should be "Wikitech"

If there are other list, I'm happy to provide guidance, but hopefully the
above patterns can be used for other lists that I missing, basically we
can't use spaces as separators, as gmail drops anything after the first
word, it would also be helpful to denote public vs private lists.

*Jared Zimmerman * \\ Director of User Experience \\ Wikimedia Foundation

M +1 415 609 4043 \\ @Jaredzimmerman http://loo.ms/g0

--
Mark Bergsma <mark at wikimedia>
Lead Operations Architect
Director of Technical Operations
Wikimedia Foundation

Status changed from 'new' to 'open' by RT_System

Status changed from 'open' to 'rejected' by mark

<jared.zimmerman at wikimedia> wrote:

Hey, I don't have the bandwidth to go contact each list admins, and like
Jeremy said its, really a systematic problem with the names. Whats a
reasonable next step here, is there really not one person that has the
rights to change this?
*Jared Zimmerman * \\ Director of User Experience \\ Wikimedia Foundation
M +1 415 609 4043 \\ @jaredzimmerman <http://loo.ms/g0>
On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Jeremy Baron via RT <
<ops-requests at wikimedia> wrote:

On 2014-10-03 01:10:41, dzahn wrote:

thanks for the mail. Though, none of the listed lists are administered
by
Operations, either by OIT or by individual other people or they are
not really
mailing lists, but Google groups instead. Those would also be handled
by OIT.

I believe that some mailman lists have their current (sometimes confusing)
titles mostly because there was a coordinated retitling campaign at some
point.

We should first have some consensus on how to choose these settings first
before going on another campaign to change them all.

btw, where is the latest campaign documented? do we have anything written
about how to choose a title (not name) for a new list?

(if Jared wanted to change just a couple lists then it would be fine to go
to the list admins. but, IMO this is a systemic issue (and broader than
those specific examples he mentioned) which is better handled by mailman
folks)

Status changed from 'rejected' to 'open' by RT_System

On Fri Oct 03 01:49:52 2014, jeremyb wrote:

btw, where is the latest campaign documented? do we have anything
written about how to choose a title (not name) for a new list?

Thehelpfulone did write about it on wiki somewhere. The campaign you were
referring to was mainly led by him.. i mean.. he kept track of it in a wiki
table and suggested the changes.

On Fri Oct 03 01:49:52 2014, jeremyb wrote:

do we have anything
written about how to choose a title (not name) for a new list?

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Standardization#Naming_scheme
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Administration#Duties_of_list_administrators
On Fri Oct 03 17:02:09 2014, <jared.zimmerman at wikimedia> wrote:

Whats a reasonable next step here

4 out of the 8 lists mentioned can be fixed at once by techsupport@ because
they either control the list or they are Google aliases/groups.

<jared.zimmerman at wikimedia> wrote:

​How does this affect private lists such as staff, sf staff, emgt, ​the
private design list? surely we don't need community support for changing
these internal lists?
*Jared Zimmerman * \\ Director of User Experience \\ Wikimedia Foundation
M +1 415 609 4043 \\ @jaredzimmerman <http://loo.ms/g0>
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 12:21 PM, Daniel Zahn via RT <
<ops-requests at wikimedia> he kept track of it in a wiki

table and suggested the changes.

On Fri Oct 03 19:36:17 2014, <jared.zimmerman at wikimedia> wrote:

​How does this affect private lists such as staff, sf staff, emgt,
​the
private design list? surely we don't need community support for
changing
these internal lists?

I did not claim we need community support for changing them, i merely answered
Jeremy's question about the last "renaming campaign" of (public) lists. Also,
some lists are mailman and some are Google. so in this example:
staff is run by Philippe/legal.
"sf staff": "wmfsf" is also a list controlled by techsupport. OIT adds people
here when they get hired.
emgt is a Google group, not a mailman list, that's outside our control in ops,
it's also techsupport.
design-team is Brandon Harris
It just needs coordination via the admins, we can't just go in with a root pass
and change them all, and for some of them it's also technically outside of our
control.

<jared.zimmerman at wikimedia> wrote:

​thanks all, I'll get a techsupport ticket started for the 4 you mentioned.
​
*Jared Zimmerman * \\ Director of User Experience \\ Wikimedia Foundation
M +1 415 609 4043 \\ @jaredzimmerman <http://loo.ms/g0>
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:04 PM, Daniel Zahn via RT <
<ops-requests at wikimedia>@wikimedia.org wrote:

​How does this affect private lists such as staff, sf staff, emgt,
​the
private design list? surely we don't need community support for
changing
these internal lists?

I did not claim we need community support for changing them, i merely
answered
Jeremy's question about the last "renaming campaign" of (public) lists.
Also,
some lists are mailman and some are Google. so in this example:

staff is run by Philippe/legal.

"sf staff": "wmfsf" is also a list controlled by techsupport. OIT adds
people
here when they get hired.

emgt is a Google group, not a mailman list, that's outside our control in
ops,
it's also techsupport.

design-team is Brandon Harris

It just needs coordination via the admins, we can't just go in with a root
pass
and change them all, and for some of them it's also technically outside of
our
control.

On Fri Oct 03 13:09:33 2014, <jared.zimmerman at wikimedia> wrote:

​thanks all, I'll get a techsupport ticket started for the 4 you mentioned.
​

*Jared Zimmerman * \\ Director of User Experience \\ Wikimedia Foundation

M +1 415 609 4043 \\ @Jaredzimmerman http://loo.ms/g0

On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:04 PM, Daniel Zahn via RT <
ops-requests@wikimedia.org> wrote:

On Fri Oct 03 19:36:17 2014, <jared.zimmerman at wikimedia> wrote:

​How does this affect private lists such as staff, sf staff, emgt,
​the
private design list? surely we don't need community support for
changing
these internal lists?

I did not claim we need community support for changing them, i merely
answered
Jeremy's question about the last "renaming campaign" of (public) lists.
Also,
some lists are mailman and some are Google. so in this example:

staff is run by Philippe/legal.

"sf staff": "wmfsf" is also a list controlled by techsupport. OIT adds
people
here when they get hired.

emgt is a Google group, not a mailman list, that's outside our control in
ops,
it's also techsupport.

design-team is Brandon Harris

It just needs coordination via the admins, we can't just go in with a root
pass
and change them all, and for some of them it's also technically outside of
our
control.

OIT should be able to do the changes needed for all of those internal lists but
if they need help let them know they can reach out to me.