What's the actual point to this? Breaking everyone's mail filters?

The point is to finally standardise all mailing lists, a project that has been open for a few years now.

That's a nice goal, but what's the cost? Are links going to break? Will people have to change their mail filters? Are gmane and external mirrors going to have to be updated? All for an aesthetic improvement? I think there are better things to spend limited ops time on...

On a technical side, lists and emails will not break as aliases and redirects will be put in place to keep them as they are so user behaviour is not a dependent factor.

Whoa!

Everything that WMF ops does not control will break for sure..... People's filters, mailing list archives, sieve scripts, ......

I think this needs more planning and more time for announcements etc. 19 May is way too soon.

Richard.

Archives will not be broken. People's filters will also not necessarily be broken as people will more than likely continue to us the wikidata-l address when sending emails. The behaviour here won't change fairly quickly. In addition mailman will be configured so it doesn't force a change in the behaviour when emails come in as wikidata-l as opposed to wikidata.

In T99136#1286321, @JohnLewis wrote:

Archives will not be broken. People's filters will also not necessarily be broken as people will more than likely continue to us the wikidata-l address when sending emails. The behaviour here won't change fairly quickly. In addition mailman will be configured so it doesn't force a change in the behaviour when emails come in as wikidata-l as opposed to wikidata.

So to clarify, you're saying that the List-Id: "Discussion list for the Wikidata project." <wikidata-l.lists.wikimedia.org> header included in every mailman message, will stay exactly the same?

What about gmane?

In T99136#1286122, @JohnLewis wrote:

The point is to finally standardise all mailing lists, a project that has been open for a few years now.

Is that really a project? Does that have a tracking task? I know that some people dislike the "-l" suffix because we now use "lists.wikimedia.org" instead of mail.wikipedia.org, but I don't know of a specific goal to eliminate the suffix from all lists. I'm not sure how I'd feel about "wikitech-l" or "wikimedia-l" dropping the "-l" suffix.

Personally, I'd very much prefer that we focus time and energy on upgrading to Mailman 3 instead of renaming lists. :-)

In T99136#1286503, @Legoktm wrote:

In T99136#1286321, @JohnLewis wrote:

Archives will not be broken. People's filters will also not necessarily be broken as people will more than likely continue to us the wikidata-l address when sending emails. The behaviour here won't change fairly quickly. In addition mailman will be configured so it doesn't force a change in the behaviour when emails come in as wikidata-l as opposed to wikidata.

So to clarify, you're saying that the List-Id: "Discussion list for the Wikidata project." <wikidata-l.lists.wikimedia.org> header included in every mailman message, will stay exactly the same?

What about gmane?

Yes and gmane will be updated as this has happened in the past for list renames with no issue.

In T99136#1287043, @MZMcBride wrote:

Personally, I'd very much prefer that we focus time and energy on upgrading to Mailman 3 instead of renaming lists. :-)

That is a complex issue yet is also being worked on. For this to happen, lists need to be moved off Lucid to Debian Jessie which likely will involve a hardware move (there is a ticket for this and will be discuss on Monday in the TechOps meeting). Then for mailman3, it needs to be packaged by Python which last time I checked it is still not which is then another technical blocker.

In T99136#1286122, @JohnLewis wrote:

The point is to finally standardise all mailing lists, a project that has been open for a few years now.

That's a very commendable goal. I'd suggest to start with a smaller mailing list, one with few hundreds KB of mbox archive and few or no incoming links to break.

In T99136#1287141, @JohnLewis wrote:

In T99136#1286503, @Legoktm wrote:

So to clarify, you're saying that the List-Id: "Discussion list for the Wikidata project." <wikidata-l.lists.wikimedia.org> header included in every mailman message, will stay exactly the same?

What about gmane?

Yes and gmane will be updated as this has happened in the past for list renames with no issue.

And like I expected, contrary to what you claimed, it didn't stay the same: List-Id: "Discussion list for the Wikidata project." <wikidata.lists.wikimedia.org>.

I am not fond of the -l suffix either, but breaking mail clients... meh.