# User Details

User Since
Nov 1 2015, 12:12 PM (162 w, 5 d)
Availability
Available
LDAP User
Debenben
MediaWiki User

# Tue, Dec 11

Addendum: Another reason for a block formula is of course if the formula requires too much vertical space to fit into a normally spaced line

@Izno I do not know what the best way of implementing it in the extension is, but from an author point of view both are treated equally as part of a sentence and there is no difference between inline and block formula except for the size of the equation.

# Fri, Dec 7

Or with T209148 in mind, why not disable lazy loading for math "images" completely? After all they are not images, but part of the text.

Debenben added a project to T211432: chem tags should use the same rendering options as math: Math.
Debenben changed the status of T139855: Fix content with broken path integrals from Resolved to Declined.
Debenben added a comment to T182127: Additional math symbols for oriented integrals.

If a symbol people need is missing or looks ugly, they will try to rewrite equations to make it work without the symbol or use some workarounds, e.g. in this case probably something like \int_C and then specify what C means. Those line integrals are common in complex analysis (residue theorem) and hence for example also in electrodynamics, I would estimate the number of articles where they could be used to more than 100 on enwiki.

Debenben updated the task description for T182127: Additional math symbols for oriented integrals.
Debenben closed T139855: Fix content with broken path integrals as Resolved.

I think people do not want to use \oiint or \oiiint because the integral symbol looks bad, they will prefer workarounds if they look better in their setup. It is probably not the biggest problem, but I would only consider the integrals in T182127 done, if they actually produce a rendering that is not ugly. I will close this task because I think it does not help.

# Fri, Nov 16

Debenben added a comment to T197925: Create a bot to replace deprecated math syntax .

@SalixAlba I pushed a commit that should fix it

Debenben committed rTTEXddf365ecd328: fix issue with nowiki tags (authored by Debenben).
fix issue with nowiki tags
Debenben committed rTTEXfff384e374f4: test nowiki issue (authored by Debenben).
test nowiki issue

# Nov 14 2018

Debenben added a comment to T197925: Create a bot to replace deprecated math syntax .

@SalixAlba thanks for catching that. This is something we overlooked:

Debenben committed rTTEX2484341191db: +rowiki editmessage (authored by Debenben).
+rowiki editmessage
Debenben committed rTTEXdc836ffec735: +hewiki logs (authored by Debenben).
+hewiki logs

# Nov 12 2018

Debenben committed rTTEXfdfcd8550dd6: +he translation (authored by eranroz).
+he translation

# Nov 11 2018

Debenben added a member for Math: Debenben.
Debenben updated the task description for T166369: Migrate old Math options to current ones or delete them from the database.
Debenben moved T148483: Adding Math Plugin Causes VisualEditor to Crash from Incoming to VisualEditor on the Math board.

We really need an option that covers all use-cases (especially because you have to login to get to the options) but currently we don't and these options are very helpful for debugging e.g. T194768 so they should stay for now.

I think this was a problem of MathML and is fixed in newer firefox versions.

Debenben closed T132367: Latex renders with excessive height on firefox as Resolved.

I think this was a problem of MathML and is fixed in newer firefox versions.

Debenben added a comment to T29574: PDF export: Use LaTeX formulas instead of inline images.

@ovasileva I just created a pdf of https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satz_des_Pythagoras and half of it is not shown at all and the other half still looks horrible:

Debenben closed T2798: Many character sets don't work in texvc as Resolved.

The caracters probably still look bad, but there should not be any errors anymore since png is also using MathJax now

Debenben closed T2798: Many character sets don't work in texvc, a subtask of T4458: Localized TeX environment, as Resolved.

the rendering of Malayalam is still not very good, but there is no error anymore, since the png is created from the svg images now

Debenben moved T188879: Remove texvc from Incoming to Next-up on the Math board.
Debenben closed T136931: texvc vs Mathoid parsing differences as Resolved.

should be resolved since png is also using MathJax now

Debenben moved T197925: Create a bot to replace deprecated math syntax from Incoming to Doing on the Math board.

# Nov 10 2018

Debenben committed rTTEXf59e49d0caa3: remove old inputlists (authored by Debenben).
remove old inputlists

# Nov 9 2018

Debenben committed rTTEX4ea60664e6dc: +zhwiki editmessage and logs (authored by Debenben).
+zhwiki editmessage and logs

@Debenben what browsers those screenshots done with? Such a bad rendering shouldn't happen with the current solution.

# Nov 7 2018

@Physikerwelt For example in the mobile view:

# Nov 5 2018

The custom "Wikipedia syntax" suggested here would be a terrible idea. We are having enough trouble with non-standard LaTeX syntax already. At times, especially with mhchem or optional arguments (which use square brackets) it seems random, how an equation renders and if not what kind of error message you get. Even as an experienced mediawiki-user you can spend hours trying to find out where those strange error messages come from and how to fix them.

# Nov 4 2018

Debenben committed rTTEX5ba4bc2539f4: +arwiki editmessage and logs (authored by Debenben).
+arwiki editmessage and logs
Debenben committed rTTEXd0b19e5029ae: +arwiki editmessage and logs (authored by Debenben).
+arwiki editmessage and logs

# Nov 2 2018

What is currently being done is delivering the same static svg images to everyone. What I propose is to do the final rendering client-side like in normal MathJax, so that e.g.

@Pkra About inlining SVG: Maybe you are right and in principle SVG could become a better solution than HTML. I don't like the idea of taking the current system and just removing the image tags because this is not enough to solve those problems. The most probable case is that we don't have enough manpower to actually do the things that "might be doable" and "require a bit of work" and the result is that we are stuck with an over-customized, substandard, unmaintained system forever.

# Nov 1 2018

Debenben committed rTTEX09a4c07c74e3: +inputlists, correct link (authored by Debenben).
Debenben added a comment to T197925: Create a bot to replace deprecated math syntax .

@SalixAlba Thank you for taking care of the botflag on enwiki, feel free to take responsibility and request a botflag on any other project you like.

Debenben updated the task description for T208475: chem equations cut off.

# Oct 30 2018

Debenben committed rTTEXe92f5e402b04: move logs to own directory (authored by Debenben).
move logs to own directory
Debenben committed rTTEXb185a02aea94: plwiki logs (authored by Debenben).
plwiki logs

@Theklan: We are currently discussing some changes to the math extension here: T195861, you are welcome to discuss this issue. Currently the plan is to

1. get a correct rendering like in normal MathJax / LaTeX for all equations, especially mhchem
2. render non-ASCII-characters like Cyrillic letters, äöü etc. properly in all browsers such that \text can be used with all languages that need special characters

As you can see this is a tremendous amount of work, progress is quite slow and everything relies on volunteers. I don't think changing the syntax for existing formulas with commas is feasible and maintaining the current system without additional localization features already overstretches our resources. I think it would be a better idea to just keep using the well-known {,} for decimal comma and make sure that help pages mention this LaTeX hack.

# Oct 23 2018

Debenben committed rTTEX660b1615631b: +plwiki test (authored by Debenben).
+plwiki test

# Oct 7 2018

Debenben committed rTTEX5811c6c744bf: ruwiki editmessage (authored by Debenben).
ruwiki editmessage
Debenben committed rTTEX26ab4b052084: added more initial input lists (authored by Debenben).

# Oct 3 2018

Debenben committed rTTEXfc2300adf1f0: +eswiki editsummary and logs (authored by Debenben).
+eswiki editsummary and logs

# Aug 19 2018

Debenben updated subscribers of T197925: Create a bot to replace deprecated math syntax .

@SalixAlba Thank you for finding the problem with the unmatched math tags and fixing it, also @Framawiki thanks for your pull request.

Debenben committed rTTEX88594539040a: frwiki logfiles (authored by Debenben).
frwiki logfiles
Debenben committed rTTEX0aeb66a5d508: set changed flag (authored by Debenben).
set changed flag
transferred changes from mathwikibot2 into mathwikibot script
Debenben committed rTTEXce82ab45ba8d: Merge branch 'D1087' (authored by Debenben).
Merge branch 'D1087'
Debenben committed rTTEX747376626dba: mathwikibot2 script rejecting nowiki tags (authored by Debenben).
mathwikibot2 script rejecting nowiki tags
Debenben committed rTTEXb0221e7d7b2c: logfiles (authored by Debenben).
logfiles

# Aug 7 2018

I think one has to differentiate: Of course there are large formulas which cannot be broken and need some scrolling mechanism. Most formulas however have a structure like $A=B+C+D$ which you can break almost everywhere if necessary. Wikipedia authors currently have a choice between

• Adding permanent linebreaks or splitting the expression up in smaller chunks which means making it less readable by wasting space on large screens and/or introducing unnecessary artificial names for parts of the sum
• Not adding any linebreaks, making the expression unreadable on small screens or introducing unnecessary scrolling or zooming.
First sentence
:$A$$\;=B$$\;+C${{nowrap|$\;+D$.}}
Next sentence.

to force a correct linebreaking behaviour and an equal looking punctuation mark.

# Aug 4 2018

Yes, definitely. This would also solve part of T194768. With JS and Mathjax you can get this functionality easily, however in Wikipedia it seems to be a huge problem because most people get to see the math as images rather than text. We are trying to come up with a solution and would need some input from developers, see T195861.

# Jul 25 2018

Debenben added a comment to T197176: Install texlive-full package.

The goal of the project would be to verify that every mathematical formula uses proper LaTeX syntax. Because LaTeX is based on macros, this can be quite complicated and the only way to be 100% sure is to use LaTeX and render it. For example MathJax treats \overline and similar primitives like normal macros, thus it is sometimes more tolerant than other rendering engines.

merci

Debenben committed rTTEXa77c4c72bcb2: +dewiki logfiles (authored by Debenben).
+dewiki logfiles
Debenben added a comment to T197925: Create a bot to replace deprecated math syntax .

Turns out: There is no problem with setting the botflag. I was expecting a fat B to show up in the version history, but this is only shown in recent changes

# Jul 11 2018

Debenben added a comment to T197925: Create a bot to replace deprecated math syntax .

The bot has bot-rights on dewiki, but saving with botflag=True doesn't set the botflag. Any idea?

Merge branch 'master' of ssh://git-ssh.wikimedia.org/diffusion/TTEX/tool-texbot

# Jul 1 2018

Debenben added a comment to T197925: Create a bot to replace deprecated math syntax .

Thanks for fix with the negative lookahead.

Debenben committed rTTEX10c706e64b50: some more fixes (authored by Debenben).
some more fixes

# Jun 30 2018

Debenben added a comment to T197925: Create a bot to replace deprecated math syntax .

Thanks for finding the problem with the login. The problem with the missing \and replacement could be that [^\\] doesn't match at the beginning of the string when there is no character to match.

Debenben added a comment to T197925: Create a bot to replace deprecated math syntax .

@SalixAlba It seems the problem with the login came with the try catch block, maybe it goes away when we remove it. It seems like the bot is trying to login when it is already logged in.

# Jun 27 2018

Debenben closed Restricted Task, a subtask of T197925: Create a bot to replace deprecated math syntax , as Resolved.
Debenben committed rTTEX79a3c9727eb8: remove .gitignore from repo (authored by Debenben).
remove .gitignore from repo
Merge branch 'master' of ssh://git-ssh.wikimedia.org/diffusion/TTEX/tool-texbot
Debenben committed rTTEXa5f6ca8b28c6: added files (authored by Debenben).

# Jun 26 2018

Debenben committed rTTEXa19cc4b9332b: add files (authored by Debenben).
Merge branch 'master' of ssh://git-ssh.wikimedia.org/diffusion/TTEX/tool-texbot
Debenben committed rTTEX52230db96c2b: +some more files that were excluded before (authored by Debenben).
+some more files that were excluded before

# Jun 24 2018

Debenben added a comment to T197925: Create a bot to replace deprecated math syntax .

@SalixAlba I created a version of mathwikibot.py that should ensure that the same part of the file is being replaced. It is not extensively tested, I created a "finditer" branch so that we can keep using the master branch in case it doesn't work.

@TheDJ Thanks for the requirement list. Am I right that those are user-convenience features we "should" meet and not "hard" requirements breaking the MediaWiki software? I have the impression that lazy and asynchronous loading might conflict with the requirement to not reflow the page.

# Jun 22 2018

@Pkra DavidEppstein already said the most important issues:

• Properly render things like $\text{это хорошо выглядит?}$, $\text{für alle}$ to have the same quality and appearance of the text outside
• The ability to copy-paste parts of an equation

Some other things I would add to the list:

• Linebreaking for small screens, snippet-previews etc. (some people put linebreaks like $a${{nowrap|$\;=b$.}} )
• A referencing system with automatic numbers aligned left or right

Except for the copy-paste problem I see them as blocking issues which we need to have solved before we can address the "create a viable distinction of inline and block formulae" problem, because otherwise you need the capability of composing one block-formula with several math tags and templates and the :[itex] markup which in turn produces invalid html, some more rendering issues and also problems for unexperienced editors that try to edit formulas with the VE.

Debenben updated subscribers of T195861: Create a committee to improve the math support in Wikimedia projects.

@all: Concerning the output:

Debenben added a comment to T197925: Create a bot to replace deprecated math syntax .

@SalixAlba Thanks for identifying and fixing potential problems. I have no idea why it doesn't replace \bold there. I do not know an easy solution that would guarantee that the last replace matches the same part of the file, but so far it did not cause any problems.
@Physikerwelt For the simple substitutions we are doing at the moment, the source code of the images should be identical, so we could do a comparison to make sure we don't do any replacement texvcjs doesn't do:

# Jun 20 2018

Debenben updated the task description for T195861: Create a committee to improve the math support in Wikimedia projects.

@Physikerwelt In general I would agree, after all the whole reason for the replacement is that texvcjs is not handling LaTeX properly. We will not be able to get rid of all errors, no matter if we use a proper LaTeX parser on the broken texvc syntax or the texvc parser outputting broken LaTeX syntax.

# Jun 17 2018

Debenben updated subscribers of T197545: Grant project members access to repository created for texbot tool.

Thank you, I can push to it now, but only from my home computer and I also can't edit the access rights and add @Physikerwelt and @SalixAlba

Debenben committed rTTEX3972e0d4152e: deleted test file (authored by Debenben).
deleted test file
Debenben committed rTTEX7e69e5dc4289: added files (authored by Debenben).
Debenben committed rTTEXe5630513fe99: first commit (authored by Debenben).
first commit

@Physikerwelt: Yes, we can, however we should remove the file with the password and the file with the bot password from the public repo. There is already a git repository attached to the project, however I did not manage to push anything to it, it seems like I was able to create it, but only repository-admins can change and give permissions to push to it and I am not in that group.

@SalixAlba @Physikerwelt I added some more safeguards and I think we are ready to request bot flags. I would suggest to start on en.wikipedia with the pages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Texvc2LaTeXBot/enwiki (inputlist_enwiki.txt)

# Jun 16 2018

Debenben updated the task description for T195861: Create a committee to improve the math support in Wikimedia projects.