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[[MediaWiki:And/fr]] uses encoded leading space (wrong for some East Asian languages)
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Description

This contains an encoded leading space, which the doc asks to leve as is.
However this is is wrong for East Asian languages where no space at all should be used (e.g. in Chinese, Japanese, or Thai).

As well, why is the space following the "and" term not part of the translated item? Here also, in East Asian languages, the space after the term should be removed)

Look at existing accurate templates that don't use this MediaWiki translation, but fix the unwanted spaces for East Asian languages.

There are a few others that use a specific letter for the and term, sometimes it is even appended at end of the last term. E.g. Classical Latin using the "que" suffix, e.g. "patrius dominusque" for linking "patrius" and "dominus" (rather than "dominus et patrius" in modern Latin). There are other languages that may need further modifications (possibly mutations of the last term after the word for translating "and")

So more generally, you should use a translation unit using two parameters $1 and $2, and ask for translating "$1 and $2".

See also CLDR data about how to format enumerated lists. See also existing modules in Commons that have replaced older templates, using CLDR data (and some tweaks or additions for languages that are still without data for this format in CLDR).


URL: https://translatewiki.net/wiki/MediaWiki:And/fr

Event Timeline

Verdy_p created this task.Apr 10 2016, 11:11 PM
Restricted Application added a subscriber: Aklapper. · View Herald TranscriptApr 10 2016, 11:11 PM
Aklapper renamed this task from [[MediaWiki:And/fr]] i18n issue to [[MediaWiki:And/fr]] uses encoded leading space (wrong for some East Asian languages).Apr 11 2016, 9:59 AM

Well, as you mentioned "Chinese", there have different process modes that also make me confused:

If including Chinese dialects:

That's correct, if those dialect want spaces, they will insert it in the translation of " and ".
What this means is that when using this resource, you should not incldue any space after or before the transcluded translation, the translation itself will include it properly on one or both sides (it will be included in English on both sides, but not for "zh"; but if some Chinese dialects still use spaces for word separations, thy can introduce them in the translation).

The same remark applies t othe transaltion of "or", and more generally to list separators (e.g. the English comma ", " includes a space after, not before; but the Traditional Chinese/Japanese comma don't have any space around. The French semicolon includes a space on both sides, when English uses none, and Japanese uses a wide semicolon with no spaces at all; the character for the comma also changes contextually, just like the question mark, or the colon, or the sentence-ending dot in some scripts, or even differently for the dot marking the end of an abbreviation, or the dot and comma used as decimal or group separators in numbers).

So I suggest adding documentation in the transaltion interface about how to setup spaces before or after this.
For now Commons continues using its own (correct) autotranslating {{And}} template and not this (incorrect) {{int:And}}.

jimmyxu removed a subscriber: jimmyxu.May 22 2016, 2:59 AM

The MoS of zhwiki mandates that no spaces be used. As such I have just updated that locally. Not too relevant for this particular issue imo.

The MoS of zhwiki mandates that no spaces be used. As such I have just updated that locally. Not too relevant for this particular issue imo.

Fixed? See for example Special:Version

Look at the bottom of the Chinese page, you'll see that there are incorrect
spaces around the Chinese comma and the Chinese sinogram for "and"

The same page also is inconsistant about the use of traditional Chinese and
wide-Latin punctuations (commas) in the first section... Normally
wide-Latin is not correct within Chinese-only text, it may happen however
between wide-Latin words that are part of a Chinese paragraph.
But this page instead uses traditional Chinese commas between non-wide
Latin names (which is not incorrect and even preferable, but less common
than the non-wide standard comma in a list between non-wide Latin words).
In that first paragraph we have mostly non-Chinese names in Latin (so it
should be a Latin comma, not the traditional wide Chinese comma). But in
the second paramgraph we are almost fully in Chinese, and the comma should
really be traditional (here it uses a wide-Latin comma !)

The same page also is inconsistant about the use of traditional Chinese and
wide-Latin punctuations (commas) in the first section... Normally
wide-Latin is not correct within Chinese-only text, it may happen however
between wide-Latin words that are part of a Chinese paragraph.
But this page instead uses traditional Chinese commas between non-wide
Latin names (which is not incorrect and even preferable, but less common
than the non-wide standard comma in a list between non-wide Latin words).
In that first paragraph we have mostly non-Chinese names in Latin (so it
should be a Latin comma, not the traditional wide Chinese comma). But in
the second paramgraph we are almost fully in Chinese, and the comma should
really be traditional (here it uses a wide-Latin comma !)

Yup, that's why I would like to have a neutral discussion with Cwlin0416 about this message, for what I have found, the MediaWiki:And/zh-hant on zhwiki, which is jimmy xu's fixing page, has been deleted because MediaWiki default deleted MediaWiki:And/zh.

Cwlin0416 added a comment.EditedJun 29 2016, 11:37 PM

@Verdy_p Traditional Chinese used to have SPACE between Chinese (Full-Width) and English (Half-Width).

Generally, "and" should translate without SPACE, but according to the paragraph in Special:Version, if translate "and" to "和" (without SPACE), will show as "其他和translatewiki.net 翻譯人員" which is not match Tranditional Chinese's translate convention and it's should be "其他和 translatewiki.net 翻譯人員".

@Verdy_p Traditional Chinese used to have SPACE between Chinese (Full-Width) and English (Half-Width).
Generally, "and" should translate without SPACE, but according to the paragraph in Special:Version, if translate "and" to "和" (without SPACE), will show as "其他和translatewiki.net 翻譯人員" which is not match Tranditional Chinese's translate convention and it's should be "其他和 translatewiki.net 翻譯人員".

Wrong. its a case where there's a switch from one script (and language) to another and where "translatewiki.net" is separated by spaces because it is actually in English, not Chinese. And this would not be jsut for the Chinese word translating "and" but also after the "translatewiki.net" item, which should be either quoted or embedded with some horizontal margin, independantly of the fact that there's a Chinese "and" before it or any other Chinese word.
So the Chinese "and" (和) remains without any space added before or after.

Your example should be "其他和「translatewiki.net」翻譯人員" if using the Asian quotation marks (note that there's also NO spaces before or after these quotation marks, that embed their own leading or trailing gaps where needed depending on Chinese font styles. You could also use "其他和<bdi style="margin:0 .25em">translatewiki.net</bdi>翻譯人員" to embed this word or some English or other non Chinese text within the Chinese context. And here again there won't be any space added around "和".

Where to insert extra spaces in that case? in the trnaslation of full sentences; but some smarter CSS could autodetect a transition between fill-width Hanzi/Kanji and half-width or other scripts (including Latin, Greek, Cyrillic, and Hangul ... but not sure about Bopomofo, Yi, Hiragana or Katakana) to autoinsert the spacing. This will still be a very exceptional case (mulilingual contexts). But for the most general case there's no space at all around "和".

Other solution: translate as "其他和<bdi lang="en">translatewiki.net</bdi>翻譯人員" and let some CSS detect the transition of languages/scripts: the surrounding bdi is there for the enclosure of the untranslated term "translatewiki.net" (and bdi will work when embedding it in Arabic or Hebrew instead of Chinese here.

Note that Japanese has other requirements (untranslated English terms are generally not surrounded by any space, but may be followed by Hiragana suffixes attached to them directly, but the term for translating "and" will also not include any space.

Liuxinyu970226 added a subscriber: jimmyxu.

@Verdy_p Traditional Chinese used to have SPACE between Chinese (Full-Width) and English (Half-Width).
Generally, "and" should translate without SPACE, but according to the paragraph in Special:Version, if translate "and" to "和" (without SPACE), will show as "其他和translatewiki.net 翻譯人員" which is not match Tranditional Chinese's translate convention and it's should be "其他和 translatewiki.net 翻譯人員".

Wrong. its a case where there's a switch from one script (and language) to another and where "translatewiki.net" is separated by spaces because it is actually in English, not Chinese. And this would not be jsut for the Chinese word translating "and" but also after the "translatewiki.net" item, which should be either quoted or embedded with some horizontal margin, independantly of the fact that there's a Chinese "and" before it or any other Chinese word.
So the Chinese "and" (和) remains without any space added before or after.
Your example should be "其他和「translatewiki.net」翻譯人員" if using the Asian quotation marks (note that there's also NO spaces before or after these quotation marks, that embed their own leading or trailing gaps where needed depending on Chinese font styles. You could also use "其他和<bdi style="margin:0 .25em">translatewiki.net</bdi>翻譯人員" to embed this word or some English or other non Chinese text within the Chinese context. And here again there won't be any space added around "和".
Where to insert extra spaces in that case? in the trnaslation of full sentences; but some smarter CSS could autodetect a transition between fill-width Hanzi/Kanji and half-width or other scripts (including Latin, Greek, Cyrillic, and Hangul ... but not sure about Bopomofo, Yi, Hiragana or Katakana) to autoinsert the spacing. This will still be a very exceptional case (mulilingual contexts). But for the most general case there's no space at all around "和".
Other solution: translate as "其他和<bdi lang="en">translatewiki.net</bdi>翻譯人員" and let some CSS detect the transition of languages/scripts: the surrounding bdi is there for the enclosure of the untranslated term "translatewiki.net" (and bdi will work when embedding it in Arabic or Hebrew instead of Chinese here.
Note that Japanese has other requirements (untranslated English terms are generally not surrounded by any space, but may be followed by Hiragana suffixes attached to them directly, but the term for translating "and" will also not include any space.

I doubt if @Cwlin0416 could agree something like 「」 (as per https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Thread:User_talk:Cwlin0416/%E5%BC%95%E8%99%9F%E7%9A%84%E4%BD%BF%E7%94%A8%E3%80%82%E3%80%82%E3%80%82/reply_(6), this user says that anything of ' ' " " / \ # @ & * ( ) ^ $ - = ; [ ] | ~ will be kept as-is under his translation) or <bdi></bdi>, since this And message is called from the source codes below.

So unfortunatelly, @jimmyxu you have to come back to this task, to help us by investigating the finally resolution of MediaWiki:And/zh-hant usage (AGAIN, adding of this message on-wiki will be automatically deleted by User:MediaWiki default)

PS: By visiting Special:version?uselang=qqx I can see

(version-poweredby-credits: 2016, Magnus Manske(comma-separator)Brion Vibber(comma-separator)Lee Daniel Crocker(comma-separator)Tim Starling(comma-separator)Erik Möller(comma-separator)Gabriel Wicke(comma-separator)Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason(comma-separator)Niklas Laxström(comma-separator)Domas Mituzas(comma-separator)Rob Church(comma-separator)Yuri Astrakhan(comma-separator)Aryeh Gregor(comma-separator)Aaron Schulz(comma-separator)Andrew Garrett(comma-separator)Raimond Spekking(comma-separator)Alexandre Emsenhuber(comma-separator)Siebrand Mazeland(comma-separator)Chad Horohoe(comma-separator)Roan Kattouw(comma-separator)Trevor Parscal(comma-separator)Bryan Tong Minh(comma-separator)Sam Reed(comma-separator)Victor Vasiliev(comma-separator)Rotem Liss(comma-separator)Platonides(comma-separator)Antoine Musso(comma-separator)Timo Tijhof(comma-separator)Daniel Kinzler(comma-separator)Jeroen De Dauw(comma-separator)Brad Jorsch(comma-separator)(version-poweredby-others)(and)(word-separator)(version-poweredby-translators))

Maybe the whole Special:Version should be rewritten.

Verdy_p removed Verdy_p as the assignee of this task.Mar 3 2018, 11:02 AM

I don't know why I am assigned this task as I cannot resolve it myself in Mediawiki ! I just want to be notified (i.e. only a subscriber)...