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zh-yue.wikipedia should use English namespace names as well as Wikipedia/Wikipedia_talk for NS_PROJECT[_TALK]
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Description

Starting from this morning, the namespaces (ie. URIs) have changed from the canonical names (User, User talk, Wikipedia talk, Template etc.) to the partially localised versions (用戶, 用戶傾偈, Wikipedia 傾偈, 模 etc.) for no obvious reason (MediaWiki update?). The software now inconsistently displays the canonical namespace names sometimes and the localised namespace names at other times.

The critical problem is that one canonical namespace name, "Wikipedia talk:", stopped working altogether. This created thousands of broken links overnight. We admins at zh-yue.wp are desperate to know what happened and request this issue to be fixed as soon as possible.


Version: unspecified
Severity: normal

Details

Reference
bz30392

Event Timeline

bzimport raised the priority of this task from to High.Nov 21 2014, 11:53 PM
bzimport set Reference to bz30392.
bzimport added a subscriber: Unknown Object (MLST).

That's strange, I don't see how that would've happened. I added Wikipedia talk and MediaWiki talk aliases just now, so that should unbreak your links. If you're unhappy with any of the other namespace names:

  • Contact us if it's the project namespaces (Wikipedia, Wikipedia talk) or custom namespaces (Portal, Portal talk), or anything else that affects only zh-yuewiki as opposed to the zh-yue language as a whole
  • Contact TranslateWiki if it's any of the other namespaces, or aliases that apply to the zh-yue language as a whole.

Closing as FIXED because the problem as reported ("Wikipedia talk doesn't work any more") is fixed; if something is still wrong, feel free to reopen.

I had suspected someone was changed the namespace into the localised name via translatewiki, however there's no history changes to show who was changed for that.

http://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?language=yue&module=namespace&title=Special%3AAdvancedTranslate

As long as the localised name was set as the alias of the original namespace (in English) the link was work. If the link still does not work, there may be necessary to change back to the namespace that were previously set (i.e. revert back to the original English namespace, with Cantonese namespace name as alias).

I think the main reason is that since the launch of zh-yuewiki, we
administrators decided *not* to localise any of the namespace names. However,
at the same time, a separate team of MediaWiki translators localised the
namespace names into Cantonese using translatewiki. Therefore, when the
MediaWiki upgrade came along, it replaced all the namespace names we're using
into the names on translatewiki, some of which are suboptimal (eg. the spacebar
in $1_talk is nonsense for any Chinese language) and broke "Wikipedia talk".

Is it possible that you fetch a dump of all namespace names, localised
versions, and aliases currently used on zh-yuewiki? I don't seem to be able to
fetch LocalSettings.php as a sysop.

PS. Thanks Roan. It's great to have a developer friend to call upon.

[edit conflict] I agree with Shinjiman that all zh-yuewiki namespace names should be reverted to their original canonical names, with the localised names as aliases.

(In reply to comment #3)

I think the main reason is that since the launch of zh-yuewiki, we
administrators decided *not* to localise any of the namespace names. However,
at the same time, a separate team of MediaWiki translators localised the
namespace names into Cantonese using translatewiki. Therefore, when the
MediaWiki upgrade came along, it replaced all the namespace names we're using
into the names on translatewiki, some of which are suboptimal (eg. the spacebar
in $1_talk is nonsense for any Chinese language) and broke "Wikipedia talk".

Is it possible that you fetch a dump of all namespace names, localised
versions, and aliases currently used on zh-yuewiki? I don't seem to be able to
fetch LocalSettings.php as a sysop.

The config files may be found at http://noc.wikimedia.org/conf . The relevant file is InitialiseSettings.php . It's quite enormous and covers all wikis.

What you probably want is something more like http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=query&meta=siteinfo&siprop=namespaces|namespacealiases . The syntax may be a bit cryptic, but it'll tell you exactly what the wiki believes the namespace names and aliases to be, inferred from a few different sources (configuration, zh-yue translation file, any fallback languages' (zh?) translation files, English translation file).

(In reply to comment #2)

I had suspected someone was changed the namespace into the localised name via
translatewiki, however there's no history changes to show who was changed for
that.

I suspected that too, but there's no record of the code on the cluster having changed recently. What happened is still a bit of a mystery to me.

http://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?language=yue&module=namespace&title=Special%3AAdvancedTranslate

As long as the localised name was set as the alias of the original namespace
(in English) the link was work. If the link still does not work, there may be
necessary to change back to the namespace that were previously set (i.e. revert
back to the original English namespace, with Cantonese namespace name as
alias).

For links to work, it doesn't matter whether the English name is the 'real' name and the Cantonese name is the alias, or vice versa. Links will work either way, as long as the aliases are there. In fact, links using English namespace names for core namespaces (in your case, everything except Portal and Wikipedia) will *always* work on any MediaWiki installation, no matter what language it's in.

Per comment #2, please sort things out with TranslateWiki if the blame is there, or with us if something's wrong with the names/aliases of the Wikipedia or Portal namespaces. I noticed this bug was reopened; do you guys still need anything from us with regard to the Wikipedia or Portal namespaces?

I marked this bug as reopened because while the localisation at TranslateWiki is to be blamed for the bug, it's not the real source of the problem. The actual problem is that zh-yuewiki wants the English namespace names as the "real" names (which one is "real" matters, because it's the one displayed on the page title after redirection).

Is it possible that we override the priorities, and use the English namespace names as the "real" names, and the localised names as aliases?

Another problem is that the word "Wikipedia" in the namespace isn't localised along with other parts of the namespace name. Hence we get the strange namespace "Wikipedia 傾偈", which should be "Wikipedia talk" or "維基百科傾偈".

Thanks again Roan.

Adding Niklas and Siebrand since they'll be able to tell us what twn can or can't do in this situation.

I can only suggest local WMF patch to take of the namespaces. This is routine MediaWiki localisation that affects anybody, not just Wikipedia.

Niklas: please do that. We at zh-yue.wiki have been using the original English namespaces for all our links, and would prefer to keep it that way. The localised names should be kept as aliases.

Cross-posting for reference:
http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/phase3/languages/messages/MessagesYue.php?r1=94011&r2=94017
http://translatewiki.net/wiki/User_talk:Siebrand#Namespace_translations_on_Cantonese_wikipedia_15786

Sorry but I can't do that.

Adding shell keyword so that this can be picked up by the proper group.

As for changes to generic namespace names and the Translate extension. History for namespace changes is kept in http://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=MediaWiki:Sp-translate-data-Namespaces/yue&action=history

Also updated priority a bit, as the most impacting issue has already been resolved, as stated in comment 1.

(In reply to comment #2)

I suspected that too, but there's no record of the code on the cluster having
changed recently. What happened is still a bit of a mystery to me.

Probably has to do with r94026 being deployed.

One very important point was raised by zh-yue:User:HenryLi.

The colon (:) is inherently foreign to any Chinese language, because we use the full-width colon (:) instead. As a result, there is no point in localising the namespaces into Chinese / Cantonese / any other Chinese language written in Chinese script unless the option of replacing the colon with something else is available.

Will editing MediaWiki:Sp-translate-data-Namespaces/yue back to the English version be a workable option?

(In reply to comment #11)

One very important point was raised by zh-yue:User:HenryLi.

The colon (:) is inherently foreign to any Chinese language, because we use the
full-width colon (:) instead. As a result, there is no point in localising the
namespaces into Chinese / Cantonese / any other Chinese language written in
Chinese script unless the option of replacing the colon with something else is
available.

This is the first time I have heard about this issue.

Will editing MediaWiki:Sp-translate-data-Namespaces/yue back to the English
version be a workable option?

No, that wont work.

(In reply to comment #8)

Niklas: please do that. We at zh-yue.wiki have been using the original English
namespaces for all our links, and would prefer to keep it that way. The
localised names should be kept as aliases.

So that's what needs doing to finish this bug off?

(In reply to comment #13)

So that's what needs doing to finish this bug off?

Update InitialiseSettings.php on the Wikimedia cluster with overrides for standard namespace names for zhyuewiki and add the standard MediaWiki core namespace names for "yue" as aliases. Updated configuration is at https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=User:Siebrand/zh_yuewiki&oldid=3320723

Also pasting below for quick reference (not sure if the tabs are preserved):

'wgExtraNamespaces' => array(
'zh_yuewiki' => array(

  1. Override MediaWiki default namespace names for "yue".
		NS_MEDIA            => 'Media',
		NS_SPECIAL          => 'Special',
		NS_TALK             => 'Talk',
		NS_USER             => 'User',
		NS_USER_TALK        => 'User_talk',
		NS_PROJECT_TALK     => '$1_talk',
		NS_FILE             => 'File',
		NS_FILE_TALK        => 'File_talk',
		NS_MEDIAWIKI_TALK   => 'MediaWiki_talk',
		NS_TEMPLATE         => 'Template',
		NS_TEMPLATE_TALK    => 'Template_talk',
		NS_HELP             => 'Help',
		NS_HELP_TALK        => 'Help_talk',
		NS_CATEGORY         => 'Category',
		NS_CATEGORY_TALK    => 'Category_talk',
		# Additional namespaces.
		100 => 'Portal',
		101 => 'Portal_talk',

),

'wgNamespaceAliases' => array(
'zh_yuewiki' => array(

		'WP' => NS_PROJECT,
		'WT' => NS_PROJECT_TALK,
		'T' => NS_TEMPLATE,
		'H' => NS_HELP,
		'P' => 100,
		# 'PT' => 101,
		'Wikipedia_talk' => NS_PROJECT_TALK,
		'MediaWiki_talk' => NS_MEDIAWIKI_TALK,
		# Aliases for MediaWiki core "yue" namespace names.
		'媒體' => NS_MEDIA,
		'特別' => NS_SPECIAL,
		'傾偈' => NS_TALK,
		'用戶' => NS_USER,
		'用戶傾偈' => NS_USER_TALK,
		'$1_傾偈' => NS_PROJECT_TALK,
		'文件' => NS_FILE,
		'文件傾偈' => NS_FILE_TALK,
		'MediaWiki_傾偈' => NS_MEDIAWIKI_TALK,
		'模' => NS_TEMPLATE,
		'模傾偈' => NS_TEMPLATE_TALK,
		'幫手' => NS_HELP,
		'幫手傾偈' => NS_HELP_TALK,
		'分類' => NS_CATEGORY,
		'分類傾偈' => NS_CATEGORY_TALK,

),

This is awesome. Thanks!

deryckchan added a comment.EditedFeb 23 2018, 4:51 PM

Just to give you all a heads up that there's currently a discussion at yue.wp discussing the possibility of localizing the namespace names. If there's a consensus to localize them, I'll come back with the full set of localized namespace names that we agree on.

https://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:%E5%9F%8E%E5%B8%82%E8%AB%96%E5%A3%87_(%E6%8A%80%E8%A1%93)#%E7%A9%BA%E9%96%93%E5%90%8D

@siebrand : @HenryLi raised the same question as he did back in 2011: Is it possible to localize the colon (:) that separates the namespace name from the page name, into a different character preferred by the local language? In the case of Cantonese (and CJK in general) it'll be useful to have full-width colon (:) as an alias of the colon so we don't need to switch input methods twice when typing any page name with a namespace name.

Just to give you all a heads up that there's currently a discussion at yue.wp discussing the possibility of localizing the namespace names. If there's a consensus to localize them, I'll come back with the full set of localized namespace names that we agree on.

https://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:%E5%9F%8E%E5%B8%82%E8%AB%96%E5%A3%87_(%E6%8A%80%E8%A1%93)#%E7%A9%BA%E9%96%93%E5%90%8D

please file another task to reflect that discussion