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Remove default web font for Persian language
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Description

After Activating Universal Language Selector(ULS) fa.wiki's font is not good and most of the users want to disable it!
Now we set Tahoma in common.css but it is not good Idea.
Please add possibility to disable or replace default font (in local wiki)
Now most of Farsi free fonts doesn't render good in windows and should use Pc's fonts


Version: unspecified
Severity: normal

Details

Reference
bz49957

Event Timeline

bzimport raised the priority of this task from to Medium.Nov 22 2014, 1:48 AM
bzimport set Reference to bz49957.
bzimport added a subscriber: Unknown Object (MLST).
Yamaha5 created this task.Jun 21 2013, 1:50 PM

nzmoihue wrote:

Some users (Windows users) want use currently configured font on the Wiki and some users (non-Windows users) want using embedded font. The configured embedded font is not good enough at least for Windows users.

So please put embedded font as an optional/fallback font. Please don't disable embedded font and don't remove @font-face CSSs, just put System font as default option for ULS fonts setting and let us use embedded fonts as fallback font.

Also it is good to know, using an embedded font as default option for Persian users is not cool. Most Persian users (that most of them are living in Iran) have a poor Internet connection and some browsers (Chrome) don't show the article content until embedded font loaded. If WMF really wants embedded font used all along the wikis, we must override embedded fonts with !important CSS rules for our users (actually we are doing this CSS override currently)

nzmoihue wrote:

Let me summarize last comment, please let us use this CSS (that currently available on http://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C:Vector.css) without !important rule:

body {

font-family: Tahoma, 'Iranian Sans', 'DejaVu Sans', sans-serif!important;

}

  • Tahoma is [Microsoft propriety] font that is used all along the Persian Web and most users doesn't want use anything but this font. Please don't override it as default option in ULS. It is not available on OSs other than Windows so a good fallback font is needed.
  • 'Iranian Sans' is the font that [non-Windows users] want it. It is currently embedded via ULS but we removed that from first font choice via !important rule.

In the other word, let this http://i.imgur.com/TY1CyTE.png default option.

Related URL: https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/69878 (Gerrit Change Ic77739a9748266eecbede8eeea28ab312ccb8b93)

Per http://www.microsoft.com/typography/fonts/font.aspx?FMID=1131, Tahoma is Copyright: © 2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Setting this as a default font in any Wikimedia Foundation wiki with open licensed content is most probably a bad idea.

For Persian we have the following two freely licensed fonts:

  • Amiri (default for language codes ar, arb)
  • Iranian Sans (default for fa)

Would Amiri be a better default font for Persian? If not, are there other open licensed fonts that qualify to be added to ULS and serve as default font for Persian?

More specifically: Can you please open bug reports here in bugzilla that will make "font not good" something other than a subjective qualification? The current assessment automatically leads to a proposed action, which is not necessarily the only solution. See http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/How_to_report_a_bug for a guide.

(In reply to comment #4)

Per http://www.microsoft.com/typography/fonts/font.aspx?FMID=1131, Tahoma is
Copyright: © 2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Setting this
as a
default font in any Wikimedia Foundation wiki with open licensed content is
most probably a bad idea.

We define Helvetica and Ariel elsewhere.

(In reply to comment #5)

We define Helvetica and Ariel elsewhere.

(Not that I agree with it)

As a Persian I'm telling this to you:
Amiri is worst font you can find for Persian, you can completely destroy this font and I don't mind. Problem is somewhere else "Iranian Sans" is a good font (not great though) but has certain problems in showing some letters in Windows If I want to give you an example, in this font words like "Peer" and "Pepper" looks same which are obviously different and means different too,
I contacted the creator of font and told him problems of font but I haven't received any answer yet (I sent it like one week ago)
If we want to solve this issue in long-term our only option is correcting and improving this font but for now we are making a just simple patch to prevent damaging more (short-term solution)
and beside we don't want to use Tahoma as an embedded font (AFAIK) so don't have to worry about copyright

nzmoihue wrote:

(In reply to comment #4)

Per http://www.microsoft.com/typography/fonts/font.aspx?FMID=1131, Tahoma is
Copyright: © 2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Setting this
as a
default font in any Wikimedia Foundation wiki with open licensed content is
most probably a bad idea.

Yeah. I said that before, but... did you read entire my comments? Persian Users (Wiki users and others) that mainly use Microsoft Windows will not accept any font other than Tahoma. That can be easily shown by holding a petition... In fact last time font was changed, blog/news outside of Wikipedia complained about changing the font from Tahoma. Besides we don't want serving Tahoma as an embedded font or configure it on ULS, just when users have that font Wikipedia will be shown on that. Please apply that merge request or review on it at least (or completely delete and submit new one based on it).

(In reply to comment #7)

As a Persian I'm telling this to you:
Amiri is worst font you can find

It would probably be helpful to list a few specific reasons why you consider the font useless, to help others (and especially non-Farsi speakers) understand the issues.

"Iranian Sans" is a good font but has certain problems in showing some
letters in Windows
If I want to give you an example, in this font words like "Peer" and "Pepper"
looks same which are obviously different and means different too,

Thanks! More examples would also be welcome (and pasting the words in Farsi here, if possible) but only if you have time - it helps evaluating how useful the font still is.

I found http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Iranian_fonts with some info about "Iranian Sans" but I'm still curious where we could report issues like the one you mention (this is not a question to anybody, just a note to myself). :-/

nzmoihue wrote:

(In reply to comment #9)

It would probably be helpful to list a few specific reasons why you consider
the font useless, to help others (and especially non-Farsi speakers)
understand
the issues.

You may see previous bug about it https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42280#c10

(In reply to comment #9)

(In reply to comment #7)

As a Persian I'm telling this to you:
Amiri is worst font you can find

It would probably be helpful to list a few specific reasons why you consider
the font useless, to help others (and especially non-Farsi speakers)
understand
the issues.

This font is too curved that make it almost impossible to read and make eyes tired after reading just one or two lines, It's not a formal font like Yaghout, Nazanin or so many others, It's very Arabic and doesn't have Persian theme in it and this makes Persians to hate it if you use it in a Persian text,

"Iranian Sans" is a good font but has certain problems in showing some
letters in Windows
If I want to give you an example, in this font words like "Peer" and "Pepper"
looks same which are obviously different and means different too,

Thanks! More examples would also be welcome (and pasting the words in Farsi
here, if possible) but only if you have time - it helps evaluating how useful
the font still is.

"پپر" and "پیر" in this font looks same (the third dot is not shown) and because in Persian (and other similar languages like Hebrew or Arabic) we don't write vowels unless it's amibgous, this simple bug causes lots confusements and misunderstandings, has some other problems like showing "سی" incorreclty (if you count there is three short rod (I don't know what is correct word for this) but it is shown two rods). "چی" is shown with two dots instead of three.

I found http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Iranian_fonts with some info about
"Iranian Sans" but I'm still curious where we could report issues like the
one
you mention (this is not a question to anybody, just a note to myself). :-/

If we can change it and submit it to you, we have people to work on font (Thanks Reza) and we don't need to wait for creator.

Created attachment 12645
Amiri font's style

Attached:

It would probably be helpful to list a few specific reasons why you consider
the font useless, to help others (and especially non-Farsi speakers)
understand
the issues.

Amiri's family style is stylish font (Italic or Papyrus for English which are attached) so Persian users can not read the Amiri's text as Encyclopedia and it is like fantasia or stylish fonts!

Thanks! More examples would also be welcome (and pasting the words in Farsi
here, if possible) but only if you have time - it helps evaluating how useful
the font still is.

I found http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Iranian_fonts with some info about
"Iranian Sans" but I'm still curious where we could report issues like the
one
you mention (this is not a question to anybody, just a note to myself). :-/

to have compassion between Arial and "Iranian Sans" see the attachment it shows the font's bug in windows (it is ok in mac and Linux)

Created attachment 12646
Iranian Sance Bug in windows

Attached:

(In reply to comment #13)

It would probably be helpful to list a few specific reasons why you consider
the font useless, to help others (and especially non-Farsi speakers)
understand
the issues.

Amiri's family style is stylish font (Italic or Papyrus for English which are
attached) so Persian users can not read the Amiri's text as Encyclopedia and
it
is like fantasia or stylish fonts!

Perfectly agreed, It's a formal font for Arabic language but It too stylish for Persian

Thanks! More examples would also be welcome (and pasting the words in Farsi
here, if possible) but only if you have time - it helps evaluating how useful
the font still is.

I found http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Iranian_fonts with some info about
"Iranian Sans" but I'm still curious where we could report issues like the
one
you mention (this is not a question to anybody, just a note to myself). :-/

to have compassion between Arial and "Iranian Sans" see the attachment it
shows
the font's bug in windows (it is ok in mac and Linux)

Change 71658 had a related patch set uploaded by Ladsgroup:
Some settings and an imporved font for Persian, removing Amiri font for Persian and adding "system" option per bug 49957

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/71658

I did r71658 if you merge it that would be great and will solve this bug. IranianSansZ has its own problems but as far as i checked it wasn't anything obvious and community had no objection about it

wikitaha wrote:

I just want to reflect the opinion of the fa.Wiki editors community that the Iranian Sans font makes reading the body text harder. It has lots of rough edges. We appreciate if you revert the recent changes to previous font.

nzmoihue wrote:

(In reply to comment #17)

I did r71658 if you merge it that would be great and will solve this bug.
IranianSansZ has its own problems but as far as i checked it wasn't anything
obvious and community had no objection about it

I don't call this no objection (http://fa.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D9%82%D9%87%D9%88%D9%87%E2%80%8C%D8%AE%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87/%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7%DA%AF%D9%88%D9%86&oldid=10463225#.D9.85.D8.B3.D8.A7.D9.84.D9.87_.D9.81.D9.88.D9.86.D8.AA) nobody downloaded and tested iranian sanz in order to test it.

Seriously, users don't want any embed font for now. This is what decided before on https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42280 I removed !important CSS to bring community attention directly here. FYI ckbwiki, mznwiki, fawiktionary, fawikisource, ... is also using Tahoma, 'DejaVu Sans', ... font chain, so don't know really why Persian Wikipedia is force to use embed font.

I am not a professional users in these kinds of things, but there is an important point which I think is good to be mentioned:

Recently the font of fa.Wikipedia is changed, and there is some problems in this new font. Specially in the editor, the new font of Wikipedia in editor (editing section) have lots of problem, it is hard to read it, It is a little too big, some characters cant be shown in this font. as an example:

P = پ like پیام

This character is shown like

Y = ی so it becomes ییام

I think it would be better to find a better font, for fa.Wikipedia specially for the editing pages.

Important:

I made [1] and ask people in Mediawiki:Sitenotice to come and say their opinions, result of this RFC will be considered as decision of community of Persian Wikipedia

[1]: http://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project:%D9%82%D9%84%D9%85%E2%80%8C%D8%AA%D9%88%DA%A9%D8%A7%D8%B1

Based on the decision, will this documentation help you to make changes? https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:UniversalLanguageSelector#Overriding_default_fonts

(In reply to comment #22)

Based on the decision, will this documentation help you to make changes?
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:
UniversalLanguageSelector#Overriding_default_fonts

Thank you, I know how to make a patch (I already did for using IranianSansZ #c16 )

nzmoihue wrote:

(In reply to comment #22)

Based on the decision, will this documentation help you to make changes?
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:
UniversalLanguageSelector#Overriding_default_fonts

@santhosh:
I know whats your point (using embed font for other wikis at least) but I tried your solution http://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C:Common.js "$.webfonts.repository.languages.fa = ["system", "Iranian Sans", "Amiri"];" but you see and it is not working, anonymous users is force to using Iranian Sans. Anyway using embed font for Persian is not really needed, Persian character is widely available on OSs and we don't even like to have it on other wikis. For example see http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/MediaWiki_talk:Common.css#farsi_font Persian users decided to don't use Iranian sans on Wikidata. Iranian Sans is buggy on Windows please don't force it anywhere also. Also see http://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D9%86%D8%B8%D8%B1%D8%AE%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%87%DB%8C_%D8%AF%D8%B1%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%B1%D9%87%D9%94_%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA%D9%81%D8%A7%D8%AF%D9%87_%D8%A7%D8%B2_%D9%82%D9%84%D9%85_%D8%AA%D9%88%DA%A9%D8%A7%D8%B1 second section is about disabling Iranian Sans as a default font.

@Amir it is currently available here: https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/69878

nzmoihue wrote:

*third section, "گزینه ۳ - عدم استفاده از قلم توکار به‌عنوان پیشفرض"

Change 69878 had a related patch set uploaded by Siebrand:
Fixing Bug 49957 * Disabling Iranian Sans for Persian Wikis as a default font

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/69878

Change 69878 merged by Siebrand:
Remove default web font for Persian language

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/69878

Change 71658 abandoned by Siebrand:
Some settings and an imporved font for Persian, removing Amiri font for Persian and adding "system" option per bug 49957

Reason:
Abandoning this, because the bug was closed. If you think this still needs to get in, please revive the patch set, and fix the issues that were pointed out.

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/71658

Replaced bug summary with the commit message of its fix, which seems more correct and specific. AFAIK, "possibility to disable or replace ULS default font in Local wiki" already existed (and is now documented).