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Clarify the difference between "Talk page message" and "Talk page subscription" (on Special:Preferences → Notifications)
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Description

When you visit Preferences → Notifications, you will see something like this:

image.png (2×3 px, 412 KB)

In this list, "Talk page message" refers to notifications about comments on your own user talk page, while "Talk page subscription" refers to notifications about comments on other talk pages where you subscribed to a topic. I think the labels do not explain this well.


Clicking the (i) icons reveals the following additional explanations, but I don't think they're great either:

  • "Talk page message" → "Notify me when someone posts a message or replies on my talk page."
  • "Talk page subscription" → "Notify me about activity on my talk page subscriptions."
image.png (2×3 px, 419 KB)
image.png (2×3 px, 418 KB)

In particular, they both use the phrase "my talk page" while referring to different things.

(And to nitpick a little, the explanations are backwards – "Talk page message" will notify you about any edit to your talk page (not just messages and replies), while "Talk page subscription" will notify you only about comments (and not a vague "activity").)

Requirements

The copy associated with the settings within the Notify me about these events table of the Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-echo page matches what's described in the Desire copy column of the table below:

Message nameDesired copy
echo-category-title-edit-user-talkEdits to my user talk page
Echo-pref-tooltip-edit-user-talkNotify me when someone edits my user talk page.
echo-category-title-dt-subscriptionTalk page subscription
echo-pref-tooltip-dt-subscriptionNotify me when someone posts a new comment in a topic I am subscribed to.

Event Timeline

Restricted Application added a subscriber: Aklapper. · View Herald Transcript

Here's one idea for how to rephrase it:

CurrentMy proposal
Talk page messageComments on my user talk page
Notify me when someone posts a message or replies on my talk page.Notify me when someone posts a message or replies on my own talk page.
Talk page subscriptionComments in subscribed talk page topics
Notify me about activity on my talk page subscriptions.Notify me when someone replies on any talk page in a topic I am subscribed to.

@matmarex in this mockup, what is the bit "Restore all default settings (in all sections) in red? Is that going to be a checkbox that automatically resets? Is that final copy?

Screen Shot 2021-08-13 at 9.25.12 AM.png (877×1 px, 360 KB)

Update: I talked to @DLynch and learned that this is a

built-in core-mediawiki preferences page feature

so even though I think that it looks like an error, I will not address this at least within this ticket.

I made a few very small tweaks to what @matmarex has here. You can see them in this spreadsheet

Based on my understanding, the qqq copy is standard for this kind of page element so I don't think we need to touch it.

Change 713316 had a related patch set uploaded (by Bartosz Dziewoński; author: Bartosz Dziewoński):

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@master] Clarify the references to talk pages in notification preferences

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/713316

Change 713317 had a related patch set uploaded (by Bartosz Dziewoński; author: Bartosz Dziewoński):

[mediawiki/extensions/Echo@master] Clarify the references to talk pages in notification preferences

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/713317

Change 713316 merged by jenkins-bot:

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@master] Clarify the references to talk pages in notification preferences

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/713316

Change 713317 merged by jenkins-bot:

[mediawiki/extensions/Echo@master] Clarify the references to talk pages in notification preferences

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/713317

Test wiki created on Patch Demo by JKlein (WMF) using patch(es) linked to this task:

https://patchdemo.wmflabs.org/wikis/90de0d1779/w/

This looks consistent with the other copy on the page now. 👍

screencapture-patchdemo-wmflabs-org-wikis-90de0d1779-wiki-Special-Preferences-2021-08-18-11_30_40.png (1×1 px, 186 KB)

ppelberg subscribed.

@iamjessklein: the proposed copy seems to use three different phrases to refer to similar things [i], can you share the thinking that's led to this approach?


i

PhraseImplied meaning [to @ppelberg]
**Comments** on my user talk pageSomeone says something on my user talk page
...someone **posts a message** or **replies**...Someone says something on my user talk page
**Comments** on subscribed talk page topicsSomeone says something in a topic I'm subscribed to
...someone **replies** on any talk page topic...Someone says something in a topic I'm subscribed to

Thanks @ppelberg

I think of it as this:

Comment is the main message copy. There are two ways to comment: 1. a new topic or 2. a reply to an existing topic.
I've slightly tweaked the copy again to try to communicate that more succinctly in the copy. If you have feedback, please share it here and update the copy doc.

Updates (I've bolded the new copy here)

  • Comment on my user talk page
  • Notify me when someone posts a new topic or a reply on my user talk page.
  • Comment on subscribed talk page topics
  • Notify me when someone posts a reply on any talk page in a topic I am subscribed to.

Thanks @ppelberg

I think of it as this:

Comment is the main message copy. There are two ways to comment: 1. a new topic or 2. a reply to an existing topic.
I've slightly tweaked the copy again to try to communicate that more succinctly in the copy.
If you have feedback, please share it here and update the copy doc.

I added the feedback I have below; I didn't have access to edit/comment on the sheet you linked to above at the time of writing.

Note: Please consider what I've proposed blow as a suggestion. Ultimately, I default to you to decide what copy you think will be most effective at leading people to understand what impact adjusting these settings will have on their experience.

Message nameOriginal copyProposed copy (JBK)Proposed copy (PP)
echo-category-title-edit-user-talkTalk page messageComment on my user talk pageEdits to my user talk page
Echo-pref-tooltip-edit-user-talkNotify me when someone posts a message or replies on my talk page.Notify me when someone posts a new topic or a reply on my user talk page.Notify me when someone edits my user talk page.
echo-category-title-dt-subscriptionTalk page subscriptionComment on subscribed talk page topicsTalk page subscription
echo-pref-tooltip-dt-subscriptionNotify me about activity on my talk page subscriptionsNotify me when someone posts a reply on any talk page in a topic I am subscribed to.Notify me when someone posts a comment in a topic I am subscribed to.

@ppelberg my only concern here is that "Edits" is a confusing concept to a new or junior contributor who probably doesn't understand the difference/relationship between a "comment" "reply" and an "edit". So, one way to address that is to change everything except the Echo-pref-tooltip-edit-user-talk (the tooltips which explain what the message means). Here's a screenshot from the preferences copy doc.

Screen Shot 2021-08-27 at 9.47.56 AM.png (510×1 px, 215 KB)

over to @ppelberg to review and either thumbs up or down this latest proposal.

@ppelberg In my opinion, the fact that you get notifications for every edit to your user talk page, rather than only for comments, is a bug, and I'd rather not document that in this message. (I don't really feel too strongly about it though, as long as the distinction between your user talk page and talk page subscriptions is clear, so I'd be okay with your version too.)

@ppelberg In my opinion, the fact that you get notifications for every edit to your user talk page, rather than only for comments, is a bug

It’s definitely intentional, otherwise there was no nominornewtalk user right (assigned to bots). I personally consider this a feature, as any heuristics that tries to tell comments and other edits apart is inherently only up to 99% correct, and missing a talk page message because the sender forgot to open a new section and to sign it would be really unfortunate.

TLDR: I've added the copy changes I think we should implemented to the task description's newly-created === Copy changes section. Detailed response below.


Detailed response

@ppelberg my only concern here is that "Edits" is a confusing concept to a new or junior contributor who probably doesn't understand the difference/relationship between a "comment" "reply" and an "edit".

While I share this concern, I understand this ticket to be scoped towards making it easier for people to distinguish between the, previously-written, Talk page message and Talk page subscription notification events.

With the above in mind, I think we can consider addressing the potential confusion Junior Contributors might encounter when trying to understand the difference/relationship between a "comment," "reply," and an "edit" at a later time. Here is a ticket for this work. T290702.

In the meantime, I assume it will be least confusing to Junior Contributors if the event name (e.g. Edits to my user talk page) and the tooltip associated with it (e.g. Notify me when someone edits my user talk page.), use consistent language (e.g. "edits" and "edits" vs. "edits" and "new topics" or "replies").

As such, between now and when we prioritize work on T290702, I think the echo-category-title-edit-user-talk should read as follows:

Message nameOriginalRevised Copy
echo-category-title-edit-user-talkTalk page messageEdits to my user talk page
Echo-pref-tooltip-edit-user-talkNotify me when someone posts a message or replies on my talk page.Notify me when someone edits my user talk page.

@ppelberg In my opinion, the fact that you get notifications for every edit to your user talk page, rather than only for comments, is a bug, and I'd rather not document that in this message.

I'm glad you raised this. Although, I'm not sure we know enough at this point (per the point @Tacsipacsi raised in T286954#7316170) to say for certain. As such, for now, I think it is simplest and least confusing for the setting to describe the way the system actually works and consider changes to this behavior at a later point, in the newly-filed T290701.


ppelberg updated the task description. (Show Details)

Change 721390 had a related patch set uploaded (by Bartosz Dziewoński; author: Bartosz Dziewoński):

[mediawiki/extensions/Echo@master] Clarify the references to talk pages in notification preferences (#2)

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/721390

Change 721390 merged by jenkins-bot:

[mediawiki/extensions/Echo@master] Clarify the references to talk pages in notification preferences (#2)

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/721390

The copy within settings doesn't seem to be implemented as expected. See table below. Screenshots are from: cs.wiki.

Message nameExpected copyCurrent behaviorImplemented as expected?
echo-category-title-edit-user-talkEdits to my user talk page
Screen Shot 2021-09-24 at 6.53.17 PM.png (528×932 px, 64 KB)
Yes
Echo-pref-tooltip-edit-user-talkNotify me when someone edits my user talk page.
Screen Shot 2021-09-24 at 6.53.23 PM.png (518×978 px, 74 KB)
Yes
echo-category-title-dt-subscriptionTalk page subscription
Screen Shot 2021-09-24 at 6.53.17 PM.png (528×932 px, 64 KB)
No
echo-pref-tooltip-dt-subscriptionNotify me when someone posts a new comment in a topic I am subscribed to.
Screen Shot 2021-09-24 at 6.49.17 PM.png (678×1 px, 98 KB)
No

Oh, I didn't notice you put that table in the description… I only looked at the one in T286954#7343562.

Change 724351 had a related patch set uploaded (by Bartosz Dziewoński; author: Bartosz Dziewoński):

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@master] Clarify the references to talk pages in notification preferences (#2)

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/724351

Change 724351 merged by jenkins-bot:

[mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools@master] Clarify the references to talk pages in notification preferences (#2)

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/724351

Test wiki on Patch demo by JKlein (WMF) using patch(es) linked to this task was deleted:

https://patchdemo.wmflabs.org/wikis/90de0d1779/w/