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Undeploy the 'Cologne Blue' and 'Modern' skins from Wikimedia production, as no-one is keeping them working
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Description

In https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Turning_off_outdated_skins when we killed five of the then-nine skins available on the site, originally these two were retained as unsupported-by-WMF because volunteers said they would keep them running and up-to-date.

However, this hasn't happened in practice. Various key features and extensions don't work, or don't work well, in these skins, including notifications, the visual editor, and others. Occasionally, someone shouts a lot (and rightly so), and WMF staffers and others try to apply a quick fix to keep things sort-of working, but it's against our explicit statement that we wouldn't do this, and it strengthens the incorrect understanding that we do try to keep them running.

Maybe we should admit reality, and remove them from production rather than falsely (albeit implicitly) claiming that they work by continuing to ship them?

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Event Timeline

Jdforrester-WMF created this task.Oct 14 2015, 1:14 AM
Jdforrester-WMF raised the priority of this task from to Needs Triage.
Jdforrester-WMF updated the task description. (Show Details)
Jdforrester-WMF added projects: Readers-Web-Backlog, Wikimedia-Site-requests, CologneBlue, Modern.
Jdforrester-WMF added a subscriber: Jdforrester-WMF.
Restricted Application added subscribers: Matanya, Aklapper. · View Herald TranscriptOct 14 2015, 1:14 AM
Krenair added a subscriber: Krenair.Oct 14 2015, 1:15 AM
revi added a subscriber: revi.Oct 14 2015, 6:23 AM
Florian added a subscriber: Florian.Oct 14 2015, 1:02 PM
matmarex added a subscriber: matmarex.EditedOct 14 2015, 1:09 PM

I am still sort of kind of maintaining them both (you'll notice that I joined both of their projects). No one seems to be filing any bugs though. I tried to help the Echo team a bit with their recent problems (I think I managed to merge a patch), but mostly they solved them swiftly enough without me.

Jdlrobson triaged this task as Medium priority.Oct 14 2015, 4:22 PM
Jdlrobson added a subscriber: Jdlrobson.

We are either aspiring to have a skin system that doesn't need maintaining or minimal maintaining (which can be achieved by having lots of skin choices deployed) or to simply support Vector/Minerva (mobile skin).

In practice it seems to be the latter but it would be good to have clarity.

The reading team in practice is only supporting Vector/Minerva for our projects and Monobook in extreme cases (but only when trivial).

Luke081515 added a subscriber: Luke081515.Oct 14 2015, 8:32 PM
MGChecker added a subscriber: MGChecker.Oct 15 2015, 5:32 PM
LikeLifer added a subscriber: LikeLifer.Oct 26 2015, 1:03 PM
Liuxinyu970226 set Security to None.Nov 21 2015, 5:38 AM
Liuxinyu970226 added a subscriber: Liuxinyu970226.Dec 12 2015, 1:35 PM
Aklapper added a comment.Dec 12 2015, 8:15 PM
In T115430#1724958, @matmarex wrote:

I am still sort of kind of maintaining them both

Does that make this task a WONTFIX/declined?

In T115430#1725610, @Jdlrobson wrote:

We are either aspiring to have a skin system that doesn't need maintaining or minimal maintaining (which can be achieved by having lots of skin choices deployed)

Is T114071: Let's discuss the skin creation process at Wikimedia-Developer-Summit-2016 related?

or to simply support Vector/Minerva (mobile skin).
In practice it seems to be the latter but it would be good to have clarity.

Where to have this discussion and who to drive it?

Aklapper mentioned this in T98358: WMF to integrate, consolidate, and pause or stop stalled initiatives.Dec 12 2015, 8:16 PM
Nemo_bis added a subscriber: Nemo_bis.Dec 13 2015, 8:34 AM

when we killed five of the then-nine extensions available on the site

Do we have an assessment of what we gained with that operation, in hindsight?

Glaisher added a subscriber: Glaisher.Dec 13 2015, 8:54 AM
Aklapper added a comment.Feb 27 2016, 9:22 PM
In T115430#1724958, @matmarex wrote:

I am still sort of kind of maintaining them both

Does that make this task a WONTFIX/declined?

In T115430#1725610, @Jdlrobson wrote:

We are either aspiring to have a skin system that doesn't need maintaining or minimal maintaining (which can be achieved by having lots of skin choices deployed)

Is T114071: Let's discuss the skin creation process at Wikimedia-Developer-Summit-2016 related?

or to simply support Vector/Minerva (mobile skin).
In practice it seems to be the latter but it would be good to have clarity.

Where to have this discussion and who to drive it?

Restricted Application added a subscriber: JEumerus. · View Herald TranscriptFeb 27 2016, 9:22 PM
Bawolff added a subscriber: Bawolff.Feb 27 2016, 9:24 PM

Shouldn't new features work with every skin (In theory?), skins shouldn't have to be modified to work with new features (In principle).

SamanthaNguyen added a subscriber: SamanthaNguyen.Feb 27 2016, 9:24 PM
Krinkle updated the task description. (Show Details)Feb 27 2016, 11:46 PM
Nemo_bis closed this task as Declined.Feb 28 2016, 8:07 AM

Shouldn't new features work with every skin (In theory?), skins shouldn't have to be modified to work with new features

Indeed. Also, we ought to have some data on the past iteration of this skin-killing experiment, before we do a new one:

In T115430#1876144, @Nemo_bis wrote:

when we killed five of the then-nine extensions available on the site

Do we have an assessment of what we gained with that operation, in hindsight?

Closing for now, we can reopen when/if we actually have a rationale.

Restricted Application removed a subscriber: Liuxinyu970226. · View Herald TranscriptFeb 28 2016, 8:07 AM
Glaisher renamed this task from De-deploy the 'Cologne Blue' and 'Modern' skins from Wikimedia production, as no-one is keeping them working to Undeploy the 'Cologne Blue' and 'Modern' skins from Wikimedia production, as no-one is keeping them working.Mar 1 2016, 3:44 PM
Amorymeltzer added a subscriber: Amorymeltzer.Nov 8 2018, 2:11 AM
phuedx added a subscriber: phuedx.Aug 30 2019, 5:30 PM
In T115430#1724958, @matmarex wrote:

I am still sort of kind of maintaining them both (you'll notice that I joined both of their projects). No one seems to be filing any bugs though. I tried to help the Echo team a bit with their recent problems (I think I managed to merge a patch), but mostly they solved them swiftly enough without me.

@matmarex: Would you mind if I updated https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Developers/Maintainers#MediaWiki_skins_deployed_on_the_Wikimedia_Cluster to reflect that?

matmarex added a comment.Aug 30 2019, 5:56 PM

Go ahead, I'm still volunteering to maintain them.

Jdforrester-WMF added a comment.Aug 30 2019, 6:19 PM
In T115430#2069739, @Bawolff wrote:

Shouldn't new features work with every skin (In theory?), skins shouldn't have to be modified to work with new features (In principle).

That's not the development policy, no. MediaWiki's disaster-zone of skin support means it's unachievable, sadly. Scrapping the skins system and replacing it with a much-less-powerful theming concept could allow it, but no-one seems to have the appetite for that.

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