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Page curation adds text to first deletion discussion page if it already exists
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Description

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Queen Street Bus Terminal for example. The page Queen Street Bus Terminal was nominated by Atsme. If the first deletion discussion page already exists, page curation should add text to the appropriate discussion page instead (i.e. with "2nd nomination", "3rd nomination", etc. in parentheses suffixed to the end of the title) for consistency with Twinkle.

Event Timeline

Restricted Application added a project: Collaboration-Team-Triage. · View Herald TranscriptJul 1 2017, 6:22 PM
Restricted Application added a subscriber: Aklapper. · View Herald Transcript
GeoffreyT2000 updated the task description. (Show Details)Jul 1 2017, 6:28 PM
GeoffreyT2000 updated the task description. (Show Details)Jul 3 2017, 4:39 PM
Catrope renamed this task from Page curation adds text to first deletion discussion page if it already exists to Page curation should add text to first deletion discussion page if it already exists.Jul 11 2017, 6:11 PM
Catrope renamed this task from Page curation should add text to first deletion discussion page if it already exists to Page curation adds text to first deletion discussion page if it already exists.
Catrope added a subscriber: Catrope.

So are you saying you want it to create [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Queen_Street_Bus_Terminal (2nd nomination)]] instead? I understand your description of what it currently does, but I don't understand precisely what you want it to do instead.

MusikAnimal added a comment.EditedJul 11 2017, 7:08 PM

So are you saying you want it to create [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Queen_Street_Bus_Terminal (2nd nomination)]] instead? I understand your description of what it currently does, but I don't understand precisely what you want it to do instead.

Correct. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Queen Street Bus Terminal already existed so it should have created Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Queen Street Bus Terminal (2nd nomination), and so forth.

Relevant Twinkle code that may be of help:
https://github.com/azatoth/twinkle/blob/master/modules/twinklexfd.js#L525-L541

If the deletion discussion is still open, though, it should ideally reuse it (that likely means someone vandalized the page and removed {{Article for deletion}}.

Xaosflux triaged this task as Normal priority.Dec 11 2017, 11:57 PM

Still a problem... to the point that it is never advisable to use Page curation to nominate for AfD. Pretty sure most patrollers use Twinkle instead after they realise this bug exists.

Restricted Application added a project: Growth-Team. · View Herald TranscriptSep 26 2018, 4:51 AM

@Insertcleverphrasehere, @Compassionate727, @GeoffreyT2000 - The way that English Wikipedia handles this situation seems overly complicated. Ideally we want every action that PageTriage takes to be configurable on-wiki (See https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:PageTriage#On-wiki_configuration). Setting up support for creating additional pages and adding disambiguation strings would likely necessitate breaking the config model and resorting to custom code for English Wikipedia. The more we write custom code for English Wikipedia, the less configurable PageTriage becomes and the less likely that it will ever become available for other language wikis. Is there any possibility that English Wikipedia would be willing to simplify the AfD process and just list new nominations on the same page? This would also have the advantage of allowing people to easily refer to previous debates and would also simplify the nomination process (which right now is kind of a pain when there are previous nominations). I know this would be a big change, but I really don't understand why the current process is so complicated.

I have started an RfC for @kaldari's proposal above at Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion#RfC: Stop creating separate AfD pages for renominations. If that proposal passes, then this task should be closed as declined.

@GeoffreyT2000 Explaining why you were proposing the change in the RfC lead probably would have helped, although I'm not surprised it's not going over well. This didn't seem like something that would.

Alsee added a subscriber: Alsee.Sep 27 2018, 11:07 AM

The RFC currently has 10 responses at 80% Oppose. There's little chance it will turn the other way.

I understand why this would be more convenient on the programmer side to put a new AFD on the bottom of an existing page, but it would be bad for people working on EnWiki. We probably run into longer discussions and more cases of multiple re-nomination than somewhere like Commons. For example the deletion discussion for Covfefe was 136k long. That's probably a 1% case, but it's not unusual for discussions to run upwards of 50k. In an admittedly extreme case, Gay Nigger Association of America hit (22nd nomination). Five-to-nine nominations is more realistic for a really bad case recurring article. It's easier to use a clean page for the new work.

I know this goes way beyond the current task scope, but the inactive T103082 Workflow project would solve things like this. Each Wiki could configure the process locally.

@GeoffreyT2000 - Well, it's clear that RfC isn't going to result in consensus to change, so feel free to close it as [[WP:SNOW]]. Thanks for the effort though.

@MMiller_WMF - It looks like we'll need to fix this at some point.

kaldari moved this task from Inbox to To Triage on the Growth-Team board.Sep 27 2018, 2:36 PM

Just to note that I now use User:Writ Keeper/Scripts/deletionFinder.js so I don't accidentally nominate a page at AfD a second time.

For some reason, MediaWiki has never had to render ordinal numbers (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc), so there's no facility in MW core to generate these that I know of. Thankfully enwiki does have a template that does this, so here's a suggested approach that doesn't depend on building (internationalized!) ordinal support into MW core:

  • Create an i18n message that controls the name of the AfD subpage; pass it the page name (as $1) and the sequence number (as $2)
  • Start with the sequence number set to 1, and check if the resulting page title exists. If it does, try sequence number 2, 3, etc, until you find a page title that doesn't exist. Use that title for the AfD nomination.
  • In en.json, set the value of this message to something like $1 (nomination $2) or $1{{PLURAL:$2|1=| (nomination $2)}}. This is not compatible with enwiki's naming scheme, but it's a sensible default that doesn't require ordinals or anything else complicated.
  • On enwiki, create a local override of the message with $1{{PLURAL:$2|1=| ({{ordinal|$2}} nomination)}}. (Note that {{ordinal}} is a Lua-powered template that already exists on enwiki.)

(You could also use $1{{#ifeq:$2|1|| ({{ordinal|$2}} nomination)}}, that's equivalent to the PLURAL construct. However, we can't use {{#ifeq:}} in the software default without making PageTriage depend on the ParserFunctions extension, so we should definitely use PLURAL there.)

Catrope moved this task from To Triage to Upcoming Work on the Growth-Team board.Oct 9 2018, 3:41 AM
Alsee added a comment.Oct 18 2018, 2:46 AM

Note: For assorted reasons, there occasionally gaps in the (Nth nomination) sequence. If you look at Gay Nigger Association of America (22nd nomination), no pages exist at 3rd 4th 10th 11th 19th 20th or 21st. I'm not sure if Twinkle would create a new nomination at the first open slot (3rd), or if it's smart enough to create the new page at 23rd. Creating the new page at 23rd would definitely be preferable. It's probably worth checking the Twinkle code to see if it contains a solution for this, as well as checking whether it reveals any other corner cases or implementation details we've overlooked.

JTannerWMF moved this task from FY 2019-20 to Q3 2018-19 on the Growth-Team board.Jan 3 2019, 3:57 PM
JTannerWMF moved this task from Q3 2018-19 to External on the Growth-Team board.Feb 6 2019, 6:52 PM