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Create a global Talk page filter
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Description

To monitor all talk pages at once, not depending on the namespace they depend of. It should include Topic: namespace on wikis that use StructuredDiscussions.

The description of that filter has to explain clearly that it filter all actual talk pages, not pseudo talk pages like discussion happening on Wikipedia: or Project: namespaces.

Details

Related Gerrit Patches:

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Event Timeline

Restricted Application added a project: Growth-Team. · View Herald TranscriptAug 8 2018, 3:04 PM
Restricted Application added a subscriber: Aklapper. · View Herald Transcript

I would like 2 global talk page filters for watchlists. One for the latest revision on the most recent day.

Also, one for all revisions on the most recent day. I don't want the same talk page showing up on multiple days on my watchlist.

I would like 2 global talk page filters for watchlists. One for the latest revision on the most recent day.
Also, one for all revisions on the most recent day. I don't want the same talk page showing up on multiple days on my watchlist.

There is one for the latest revision, named "latest revision". That filter will only display the last edit made on all pages displayed. For instance, that filters configuration on mediawiki's recent changes page displays latest revisions on main namespace's talk pages. Remember that you can search for filters by clicking on the search bar:

If you want to limit the number of changes to the current day, you can limit it ti day 1 (from the menu on the right).

What you have on the "Active filters" area is what you will get as filtered results.

Why is it that when I add ":Talk" to the "Active filters" area I lose everything else in the "Active filters" area? Those non-talk items no longer show up in the watchlist.

Why is it that when I add ":Talk" to the "Active filters" area I lose everything else in the "Active filters" area? Those non-talk items no longer show up in the watchlist.

You then only filter talk pages attached to the main namespace.

JTannerWMF moved this task from Needs Discussion/Analysis to Q1 2018-19 on the Growth-Team board.

Following the current patterns, we can support this by adding some additional filters to facilitate the selection of all content or talk-related namespaces.
The idea is illustrated below:

Since these filters overlap in scope with others, such overlaps will be indicated in the usual way.
When selecting the "All discussions" option, all the talk-related namespace options will remain rendered as active (white background and dark text) since they are still part of the results, while content-related namespace options will be greyed-out indicating that their contents are not included in the set of results. This is illustrated below:

Having overlapping filters opens the door for users to make duplicated selections (e.g., "al discussions" + "user talk"), but that won't lead to problematic results. Namespace selection should still work as a union of the selected options (instead of using intersection since edits can be on one and only one namespace).

Any thoughts?

This new watchlist is too much like computer programming. I changed my preferences on the Commons, English Wikipedia, and Mediawiki.org back to the old version of the watchlist. "Hide the improved version of the Watchlist".

I suggest doing all future attempts at discussion and feedback on English Wikipedia, and not MediaWiki.org. It is too time-consuming trying to remember and figure out anew the talk page format. Since I don't come to Mediawiki.org often I forget what I have learned in the past about the special talk page format.

And it is too time-consuming having to deal with multiple notification systems. The topbar notifications, the multiple watchlists, Phabricator, etc..

If this was done on English Wikipedia, then these discussions would be just one of many easily scannable items on my old-style watchlist. But now I also have to click through multiple notification items on the top bar. And I can't scan them first.

I think we need a global crosswiki watchlist far more than we need these latest changes in the watchlist. I wouldn't have to make these special trips to the Mediawiki.org watchlist.

I suggest making it possible to have both the old and new watchlist. That way I can gradually figure out the new watchlist tools to see which ones I find useful. Same way I can use both wikitext and the visual editor. There are things I like in both.

I am sure there are useful tools in the new watchlist.

I suggest doing all future attempts at discussion and feedback on English Wikipedia, and not MediaWiki.org.

This won't happen as nobody has the capacity to follow ~900 different discussion places on each and every site. This is also off-topic for this very task which is about creating a global talk page filter. Feel free to bring up your general thoughts and share your personal experience on https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help_talk:New_filters_for_edit_review which is the central discussion place.

I said one site, English Wikipedia, not 900 sites. Thanks for the link to the Mediawiki.org discussion. Trizek started this Phabricator discussion here after reading my thread there:
*https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Topic:Uhngybedix497i4i

It seems there is little feedback happening on the Mediawiki.org forum overall:
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help_talk:New_filters_for_edit_review

I read there that there was a long beta period for the new filters, but most people never heard of it until the feature was rolled out as default on Wikipedia and the Commons. Then those who want to give feedback are sent to another new feature, the forums at MediaWiki.org.

To the point at hand, as the initiator of the request, I would like the new global talk filter to be in a SECOND watchlist. I want to be able to bookmark my old watchlist. And I want to be able to bookmark a SECOND watchlist.

The watchlist we were discussing in the Mediawiki.org thread was the Commons watchlist. I, and other Commons users, have certain peculiarities and needs. See that Mediawiki.org thread.

But focusing hardcore on the global talk filter. If you want more feedback from me, then I need a way to study the new filters without losing my old watchlist. I am a near-daily user of the old watchlist on the Commons. I can not be turning the new watchlist filters on and off on a daily basis in order to give you feedback on this.

English Wikipedia is 1 community/site among nearly 900 Wikimedia communities (if Wikimedia site = community). It is not possible to cover every community separately. For centralized discussion and feedback there are meta.wikimedia.org and mediawiki.org. For a global cross-wiki watchlist, see T5525 instead (different team).

What Andre says. That Phabrcator task have to remain on topic, @Timeshifter. Also, we won't privilege one Wikipedia among every Wikimedia wikis, while we have mediawiki.org dedicated to technical developments.

Concerning tests, you won't loose your old watchlist. You can any time switch back and forth, in your preferences.

I don't want you to cover every community of the 900 wikimedia communities. Only one. English Wikipedia. Nearly all the discussions on Mediawiki.org are in English. So move the discussion over to English Wikipedia. Put a redirect from Mediawiki.org and Meta.wikimedia.org. That way you will get far more feedback. It is a pragmatic thing, not an ideological thing.

Trizek. I can not switch back and forth any time in my preferences. I don't have time to do that.

@Timeshifter: Wikimedia is an international movement. We target every single human, not only humans on English Wikipedia. You are free to redirect from English Wikipedia to mediawiki.org and meta.wikimedia.org which are both sites for the entire movement.

And they are both sites that few people use. You keep missing my point.

If you want a lot more feedback from new English-speaking users concerning their opinions, problems, and suggestions concerning a global talk page filter, or anything else to do with the new watchlist filters, then make it easier for them. Let them use what they are used to: English Wikipedia and standard talk page editing.

For French speakers let them use what they are used to: French Wikipedia. Set up a talk page there.

Then post the bugs and feature requests on Phabricator. In English. In the end it all ends up in English.

English, Spanish, French, and German Wikipedia can be used as conduits since those are some of the more popular Wikipedias. But as you rightly say, it is not possible to cover 900 Wikimedia communities. There are not enough intermediaries who can relay stuff to Phabricator. So start with English Wikipedia since many people speak English as a 2nd language, and currently edit on English Wikipedia.

There are not enough intermediaries who can relay stuff to Phabricator.

Feel free to expand https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/Ambassadors . People are used to the MediaWiki software so I'd personally expect them to cope with a website like meta or mediawiki.org. We're after diverse input, not after popularity.

Thanks for the tech ambassador page link. I bookmarked it.

Multiple conduits from some of the main-language wikipedias will provide more frequent and more diverse input into Phabricator than the few English speakers (mainly) that use Meta or Mediawiki.org. Talk is not secondary to Wikipedia functioning. It is key. Just like a global talk filter is important. A recent Guardian article pointed out that the lowly talk page is key to Wikipedia's success.

This is getting off-topic.

@JTannerWMF, some design has already been proposed: T201520#4548527. I think we can unassigned Pau from that task and move it to the next step.

JTannerWMF removed Pginer-WMF as the assignee of this task.Sep 21 2018, 5:17 PM
JTannerWMF added a subscriber: Pginer-WMF.
MMiller_WMF moved this task from Upcoming Work to Needs Discussion/Analysis on the Growth-Team board.
MMiller_WMF added a subscriber: MMiller_WMF.

We already triaged this and decided we want to do it this quarter. Putting it in "To Triage" so we can scope it.

Trizek-WMF updated the task description. (Show Details)EditedSep 28 2018, 1:17 PM

Would that filter handle the Topic: namespace from StructuredDiscussions?

Would that filter handle the Topic: namespace from StructuredDiscussions?

As specified it wouldn't, because "Topic" is considered a subject namespace, not a talk namespace. But it probably makes sense to include "Topic" as a talk namespace for this purpose, if we can figure out a non-hacky way to accomplish that.

Trizek-WMF updated the task description. (Show Details)Oct 2 2018, 2:32 PM

@MMiller_WMF please review this design at some point (not urgent)

JTannerWMF moved this task from FY 2019-20 to Q2 2019-20 on the Growth-Team board.Jan 3 2019, 3:54 PM
JTannerWMF moved this task from Q2 2019-20 to Q1 2019-20 on the Growth-Team board.Jun 17 2019, 6:52 PM

We are going to evaluate this in grooming due the value the Growth-Team sees in this. I am also copying @ppelberg and @iamjessklein for visibility.

Change 530432 had a related patch set uploaded (by Sbisson; owner: Sbisson):
[mediawiki/core@master] RCFilters: add namespace filters for all contents and all discussions

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/530432

kostajh added subscribers: Etonkovidova, kostajh.

@Etonkovidova , @SBisson intentionally did not try to add Flow support as part of this patch. I would vote in favor of a new issue for tracking that, although given the Talk Pages project I don't know if any team would work on it any time soon.

Change 530432 merged by jenkins-bot:
[mediawiki/core@master] RCFilters: add namespace filters for all contents and all discussions

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/530432

Etonkovidova added a comment.EditedAug 20 2019, 11:53 PM

@MMiller_WMF - the following two shortcomings of new namespace filters All contents and All discussions need to be reviewed whether or not they require some additional work.
(1) All contents filter will include topics made on Structured discussion pages (as per @kostajh comment in T201520#5424821)


(2) (per @Catrope - logged entries are supposed to be included in All contents filter). Logged entries are included into both filters All contents and All discussions, but All contents filter will include User creation, User rights changes and Protection changes on non-Talk pages. All discussions filter will include only Protection changes on Talk pages.

  1. Please update the documentation page at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:New_filters_for_edit_review/Advanced_filters to cover this new feature.
  2. How would you like the Tech News item to be phrased? I'm guessing something like:

The advanced version of the edit review pages (Recent Changes, Watchlist, and Related Changes) now include two new filters. These filters are for "All contents" and "All discussions" and will filter the view to just those namespaces, however they do not include pseudo talk pages such as discussions that are in the Project: namespace.

Please edit that, or write whatever you'd like it to say, including the link to the docs page (once updated). (All within the next ~20 hours, before the hard freeze for Tech News translations.)
Thanks!

The advanced version of the edit review pages (Recent Changes, Watchlist, and Related Changes) now include two new filters. These filters are for "All contents" and "All discussions" and will filter the view to just those namespaces, however they do not include pseudo talk pages such as discussions that are in the Project: namespace.

That sounds good to me (cc @Trizek-WMF). Thank you!

Please update the documentation page at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:New_filters_for_edit_review/Advanced_filters to cover this new feature.

Done as well, although I just took your sentence and trimmed it down a bit as there's not a lot more to it than what you wrote.

I've reviewed the documentation, now marked for translation.
The message for tech news has been added to the current issue.

Thank you both!

@Etonkovidova @kostajh @SBisson -- I just tried this out in Beta, and it seems to work well for me. I don't, however, understand @Etonkovidova's comments from T201520#5426563.

@kostajh said that they did not add Flow support, but @Etonkovidova said "filter will include topics made on Structured discussion pages". That seems to me to say opposite things?

@Etonkovidova said "logged entries are supposed to be included in All contents filter". Are you saying that an additional change needs to be made? Did it get made?

@MMarshall - my comment is about the two current limitations of the new filters.

I don't, however, understand @Etonkovidova's comments from T201520#5426563.
@kostajh said that they did not add Flow support, but @Etonkovidova said "filter will include topics made on Structured discussion pages". That seems to me to say opposite things?

All discussions filter will not include Structured discussion topics updates. All contents will include Structured discussion topics.

And this phab task spec is, technically, not done:

To monitor all talk pages at once, not depending on the namespace they depend of. It should include Topic: namespace on wikis that use StructuredDiscussions.

@kostajh said that it may require a new ticket to address it. It's up to you to see if a new ticket should be created to follow up on it.

@Etonkovidova said "logged entries are supposed to be included in All contents filter". Are you saying that an additional change needs to be made? Did it get made?

@Catrope confirmed that the logged entries returned by All contents filter are by design. My concern is that including logged entries in All contents filter makes the filter less logical and less usable. If it looks ok to you, then it's fine.