Review and deploy Timeless skin
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Description

Hi this is a feature request, but could we add Timeless to the wmf wikis please?

Timeless is modern skin whereas vector does not look modern.

Communities queried

WikiDiscussionStarted byDateResult
fr.wiktionarylocal consensus@DerecksonFebruary 2017
fr.wikinewslocal consensus@Mattho69February 2017
fr.wikiversitylocal consensus@DerecksonMarch 2017
commonslocal consensus@IsarraMarch 2017
en.wikisourcelocal consensus@IsarraMarch 2017
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DatGuy added a subscriber: DatGuy.Dec 31 2016, 6:21 PM
Aklapper added a subscriber: Aklapper.

(Task is unrelated to the MediaWiki code base, hence removing that tag.)

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Timeless

Change 329805 had a related patch set (by Paladox) published:
Add Timeless skin

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/329805

Reedy added a subscriber: Reedy.Jan 1 2017, 6:16 PM

I know you're not proposing making this the default skin... But I think there should be wider desire for it to be available on WMF wikis before we start branching and deploying it

Never mind general and probably security code review necessary. At least giving it a once over

Reedy added a comment.Jan 1 2017, 6:17 PM

It may be appropriate to have it on the beta cluster, for people to try out though in the meantime

Not sure if https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Review_queue applies here but it would be worth taking a look to understand better. :)

@Reedy oh, is there a doc on how we can propose it for the beta wiki please?

@Paladox: Did you read my link?

Oh yep, but that's for a skin.

Peachey88 added a subscriber: Peachey88.EditedJan 2 2017, 2:08 AM

Oh yep, but that's for a skin.

Visually replace every instance of the word extension with skin.

demon added a comment.Jan 5 2017, 6:20 PM

Has there been any on-wiki discussion about this? Does any individual wiki want it? Or globally (in which case we'd need a Meta RfC)....?

Also, this needs security/architecture review as others above have mentioned.

Finally...generally speaking we really shouldn't be trying to support lots of production skins...we should be supporting as few as possible in production to make life consistent for our users and easier for our developers.

(The uploaded Gerrit change is super premature at this stage and should be abandoned)

Isarra added a comment.Jan 5 2017, 9:33 PM

I'm planning to actually do some outreach to various projects to gauge interest in the skin later (and what particular features they would want out of it), but at this point I'm not even calling the base feature set done, which I'd consider a requirement. Unfortunately, as a volunteer, I'm very sloooow. So, er, if someone else does want to do that, it might be useful and I could focus on just actually implementing the missing stuff, which really does need doing at some point...

Isarra added a comment.Jan 5 2017, 9:34 PM

Wants to get the discussions going, I mean.

Change 329805 abandoned by Paladox:
Add Timeless skin

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/329805

greg added a subscriber: greg.Jan 5 2017, 9:43 PM

Oh yep, but that's for a skin.

Visually replace every instance of the word extension with skin.

As the author/owner of that page/process: What @Peachey88 said :)

Pppery changed the title from "Add Timeless skin to wmf wiki's" to "Add Timeless skin to wmf wikis".Jan 18 2017, 3:18 AM
Pppery edited the task description. (Show Details)
Dereckson changed the title from "Add Timeless skin to wmf wikis" to "Review and deploy Timeless skin".Feb 13 2017, 10:05 PM
Dereckson triaged this task as "Normal" priority.

I'm planning to actually do some outreach to various projects to gauge interest in the skin later (and what particular features they would want out of it), but at this point I'm not even calling the base feature set done, which I'd consider a requirement. Unfortunately, as a volunteer, I'm very sloooow. So, er, if someone else does want to do that, it might be useful and I could focus on just actually implementing the missing stuff, which really does need doing at some point...

Yes, I can help for that.

I created the review subtasks, and will start to discuss the skin on fr. wikis.

Do you currently have in the labs cluster a wiki where we can test the skin by the way?

Mattho69 added a subscriber: Mattho69.

@Isarra First reactions on fr. sites are positive. A responsive theme seems most than very welcome.

Do you currently have in the labs cluster a wiki where we can test the skin by the way?

Timeless and plenty of other skins (as well as the Theme extension for that matter) are enabled on the Social Tools Development Wiki, social-tools.wmflabs.org. The wiki is running latest stable release of MW (i.e. 1.28 currently) and master versions of the social tools family of extensions (as well as some other extensions) and skins.
You're more than welcome to use that wiki for testing (but please note that editing is restricted by default as a cheap anti-spam measure, so you'll want to contact me or someone else with the appropriate permissions on that wiki for editing and/or admin access).

Yeah, the social tools devel wiki is what we've been using on labs.

Should we make something specifically for this where it's the default skin or something?

Dereckson added a comment.EditedFeb 18 2017, 11:13 PM

Yes, that would be more useful and easy to test it.

The Social Tools Development Wiki allows easily without registration to test one page with a skin, but it's not enabled by default, even with registration, ?setskin= we had from acai (vector beta) time doesn't work anymore and ?useskin=timeless won't automatically be added to URLs.

So, I'd suggest you request a labs project (see T76375) for the design development so you can showcase it. Especially as there are ready templates to deploy a virtual machine with MediaWiki in labs.

Okay, making a labs instance is apparently rather difficult. Legoktm is trying to help, but in the meantime, there's, er, this: http://wiki.zaori.org/wiki/Main_Page It's my personal wiki, it's probably up-to-date, it has some of the test case pages and a lot of other random stuff, and I recently changed the default skin to Timeless because it was less effort than getting MF to cooperate, so it should be good as an example at least for awhile.

I know it's not ideal since you can't actually create an account and stuff, though.

Dereckson edited the task description. (Show Details)Mar 25 2017, 10:32 PM
Dereckson edited the task description. (Show Details)Mar 25 2017, 10:56 PM

Okay, general update of things: There actually is a proper labs wiki for this specifically now: https://timeless-skin.wmflabs.org/wiki/Main_Page
Timeless is deployed on the beta cluster (see task two lines up).
I'm still working up the nerve to ask some of the major english projects what they think.

Isarra edited the task description. (Show Details)Mar 26 2017, 11:36 PM
Isarra edited the task description. (Show Details)Mar 27 2017, 4:31 AM
Isarra edited the task description. (Show Details)

Actual link to a betawiki just so it's easier: https://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/wiki/Main_Page?useskin=Timeless

Also, on the off chance anyone subscribed to this task is not subscribed to wikitech-l, there is a relevant grant proposal here about getting funding for doing more development work and research and outreach in order to properly support making Timeless deployable: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Timeless

Feedback on that would be very much appreciated.

Dereckson edited the task description. (Show Details)Mar 27 2017, 3:20 PM
bd808 added a subscriber: bd808.Mar 27 2017, 5:23 PM

I like it quite a lot, but:

  • T161586 is definitely a blocker, albeit not a super-complicated one to fix. There are probably more.
  • Having more skins on Wikimedia sites is an overhead for Wikimedia staff and volunteer developers, who will have to test everything with more skins. It's not necessarily a blocker, but it's one of the major issues in every discussion about skins. And no, we don't actually test every single thing with Monobook, let alone Modern or Cologne Blue, but compatibility bugs happen often enough for this to be an issue.

  • Having more skins on Wikimedia sites is an overhead for Wikimedia staff and volunteer developers, who will have to test everything with more skins. It's not necessarily a blocker, but it's one of the major issues in every discussion about skins. And no, we don't actually test every single thing with Monobook, let alone Modern or Cologne Blue, but compatibility bugs happen often enough for this to be an issue.

Do we currently test against all currently deployed skins?

  • Having more skins on Wikimedia sites is an overhead for Wikimedia staff and volunteer developers, who will have to test everything with more skins. It's not necessarily a blocker, but it's one of the major issues in every discussion about skins. And no, we don't actually test every single thing with Monobook, let alone Modern or Cologne Blue, but compatibility bugs happen often enough for this to be an issue.

Do we currently test against all currently deployed skins?

As I already wrote—not really, but we definitely do invest time in fixing bugs that affect Monobook, and these do happen. (Theoretically also Modern and Cologne Blue, but these are less of an issue.)

Paladox edited the task description. (Show Details)Mar 29 2017, 8:35 PM
Paladox edited the task description. (Show Details)

Is there a process for when to add tasks that will be blocking the rollout to other wiki's? Should we create a new task for tacking blocking bugs. Or do we add the blocking tasks to this task here?

Paladox added a comment.EditedMar 29 2017, 8:46 PM

@Isarra you should try and see if enwiki is interested in trying this skin?

demon removed a subscriber: demon.Mar 29 2017, 11:18 PM

Is there a process for when to add tasks that will be blocking the rollout to other wiki's? Should we create a new task for tacking blocking bugs. Or do we add the blocking tasks to this task here?

I'm confused about this question. This task is about "revieweing and deploying Timeless skin". If something blocks reviewing and/or deploying, it blocks this task.

  • Having more skins on Wikimedia sites is an overhead for Wikimedia staff and volunteer developers, who will have to test everything with more skins. It's not necessarily a blocker, but it's one of the major issues in every discussion about skins. And no, we don't actually test every single thing with Monobook, let alone Modern or Cologne Blue, but compatibility bugs happen often enough for this to be an issue.

Do we currently test against all currently deployed skins?

As I already wrote—not really, but we definitely do invest time in fixing bugs that affect Monobook, and these do happen. (Theoretically also Modern and Cologne Blue, but these are less of an issue.)

If anything, having more skins hopefully encourages core(/skin) developers to come up with better, cross-skin-compatible APIs and extension developers to write better code.

Dereckson edited the task description. (Show Details)Fri, Mar 31, 8:22 PM
Isarra added a comment.Sat, Apr 1, 5:26 PM

If anything, having more skins hopefully encourages core(/skin) developers to come up with better, cross-skin-compatible APIs and extension developers to write better code.

To add to this, this also has a huge impact for reuse on other-sites and especially long-term maintenance, as changes that are only compatible with one skin are also far more likely to break when that one skin changes even a little. It's true we'll need work on both sides in order to make these APIs actually work, but a wider sample size for what we're working with skin-side should also help narrow down what's viable.

Dereckson edited the task description. (Show Details)Sun, Apr 2, 4:22 PM

@Isarra you should try and see if enwiki is interested in trying this skin?

@Paladox Would you be willing to do this? My recommendation would be to just look at what Dereckson said on the french projects as an example, as he put together a very nice concise message, far more so than I was able.

Oh, I doint speak French so I wouldent be able to follow what he said but I could follow how you did it on commons as it seems there was no objections to it on there? :)

Isarra added a comment.Sun, Apr 9, 5:29 AM

@Paladox Er, yeah, that would make sense. I mean, I just stuffed it in google translate to get an idea what to write, myself.

Isarra edited the task description. (Show Details)Sun, Apr 9, 5:30 AM

Heads up, I wrote a very hasty wikimania submission about this, so if anyone is going to be at wikimania and wants to take part (we can sort out the details later), please feel free to add yourself to it: https://wikimania2017.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Timeless:_building_a_new_interface_for_Wikimedia

Or edit it, or whatever.

Jc86035 added a subscriber: Jc86035.

So what all is blocking Timeless from deployment to the above wikis? Is it mostly just the ULS thing at this point?