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Allow sitelinks to redirect pages to fix the 'Bonnie and Clyde problem'
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Filceolaire
Aug 5 2013, 10:43 PM
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Oct 28 2022, 1:55 PM
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Description

Problem
Many Wikipedia pages cover more than one object.
They can have Bonnie and Clyde on the same page.
They can have a Genus and its only species an the same page.
They can have a municipality and its same name town on the same page.
This is not a problem for Wikipedia and there is no reason for them to change.

If other language Wikipedias have a separate page for each instance/object then there is no easy way to create sitelinks between these pages and the multi-object pages.

Solution
If we could have sitelinks to redirects then the Wikipedia pages with single objects could link to the Wikipedia pages with multiple objects. (Sitelinks the other way would end up on the redirect pages so that wouldn't help but at least it is something).

Wikidata could probably manage without this functionality as the Wikidata page for the multi-object wikipedia pages can use the "consists of" property to link to a separate wikidata page for each object, whether or not these have sitelinks. Nevertheless, it would be nice to have the sitelinks as these help establish notability.

Workflow:
If you try and create a sitelink to a redirect page, a popup should ask you:
"This is a redirect page.
"Do you want to link to this redirect page? Yes?
"Do want to link to this other page the redirect points at? Yes?"

Workaround

  1. Remove the redirect code from the redirect page you want to link to.
  2. Add the page as a sitelink in Wikidata.
  3. Revert the removal of the redirect code from the redirect page.

Example: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q57339968

See Also:

Details

Reference
bz52564

Related Objects

Event Timeline

There are a very large number of changes, so older changes are hidden. Show Older Changes

I think we should first answer the question: before wikidata came, had we allowed iwiki links to chapters of the article, i. e. like this: [[de:Figuren in Tolkiens Welt#Aragorn]]? As far as I can see such links were allowed in all wikipedia on every language. Therefore why now with wikidata we can not to allow to add sitelinks to redirect pages? Maybe not to all types of redirects (it can be just different spelling, then there is no point to add its), but if it is redirect with possibilities then it definitely worth be allowed!

I believe discussing this as a "Bonnie and Clyde problem" has led to flawed examination and flawed arguments, due to the example cited.

Wikidata was largely designed, and largely operated by that community, on the theory that there is supposed to be a 1-to-1 relationship between concepts and wikidata items, as well as a 1-to-1 relationship between wikidata items and the related articles.

The flaw is that it's an invalid model. The flaw is being swept under the rug with an implicit (and arrogant) presumption that English defines reality, that English takes precedence over other languages. For example:

English Wikipedia (and Wikidata) have items for "see-saw", a children's playground seat attached horizontally to a pivot point. English Wikipedia (and Wikidata) also have items for "swing", a children's playground seat attached vertically to a pivot point. However some other languages do not consider vertical and horizontal arrangements to be different concepts. Those Wikipedia have a single article, under the single language-concept which covers both orientations.

The English article for see-saw and the English article for swing both need to link to the same foreign article. And that foreign article needs to link to both English articles. Wikidata's faulty insistence on 1-to-1 realtionships causes problems for both editors and readers.

An even more clear example is colors. Colors are literally continuous. It is impossible to objectively define one "right" answer for how many there are, and it is impossible to objectively define one "right" answer for where the dividing line is between colors. For example some languages do not distinguish between "blue" and "green". The English equivalent would be comparing "orangish-red" to "purplish-red". They are both "red", and the English language does not recognize them as distinct fundamental concepts.

And even within English, the dividing line between "concepts" is often arbitrary or fuzzy. Within English you get the "Bonnie and Clyde problem". Is the duo the significant concept? Or do you subdivide and deal with the one story in two different places? Different Wikipedia can reasonably have one article for the duo, or two articles for the individuals, or three articles for the duo and each individual. That is a judgement call, and the right answer may be different for different purposes and contexts.

The problem is fundamentally impossible to solve while enforcing a 1-to-1 relationship rule. Allowing Wikidata to link to redirects is better than nothing, but it is still a badly dysfunctional workaround. It still doesn't give readers the right interlanguage links. Having Wikidata support non 1-to-1 relationships makes things more complicated, but the world is complicated.

Thought of a technical solution, might as well throw it out there:

  1. Let's say we create a new magic word, something like __WIKIDATAREDIRECT__.
  2. Place the magic word on a Bonnie redirect.
  3. Wikidata treats that page like it's a normal page (with all the associated constraints and behavior), with one additional constraint: A WIKIDATAREDIRECT cannot be the only link on a data item.
    1. With associated tracking and such forth and suchwith.

And that foreign article needs to link to both English articles. Wikidata's faulty insistence on 1-to-1 realtionships causes problems for both editors and readers.

This "need" is not Wikidata's fault (though Wikidata could potentially be part of a solution). Interwiki links before Wikidata had the constraint (one link to an external wiki of a particular language). And this was the fundamental issue with the old way of doing things since it caused a mess of all the differing interwikis.

Wikidata added the constraint that the relation is symmetric, though.

The constraint that it has to be symmetric would be removed by the RfC through allowing the redirect links. One those links are there it would be possible to provide additional links via a plugin to link from an English "Bonnie and Clyde" article to a German "Bonnie" and a German "Clyde" article provided there's no German "Bonnie and Clyde" article.

Added a work-around to the project description. Since this work-around works (but is clunky), then I think it should be allowed within Wikidata.

Thought of a technical solution, might as well throw it out there:

  1. Let's say we create a new magic word, something like __WIKIDATAREDIRECT__.
  2. Place the magic word on a Bonnie redirect.
  3. Wikidata treats that page like it's a normal page (with all the associated constraints and behavior), with one additional constraint: A WIKIDATAREDIRECT cannot be the only link on a data item.
    1. With associated tracking and such forth and suchwith.

Another way to express the same thing would be to say that client sites should distinguish between two types of redirect:

If we encourage client sites to use redirect macros to distinguish the two uses, then the magic word could be used in one of them.

Is T235420 the same?

Currently Wikibase throws an error if you try to add a sitelink that is a redirect, I'm not sure which task (or both) would remove the error.

AlexisJazz added a subscriber: AlexisJazz.

I am currently in the business of breaking redirects so I can populate my Wikidata item and restore the redirect once I have! It's very "Bonnie and Clyde".

Is this as simple as allowing a workflow checkbox/etc to override the Wikibase validator sitelink conflict checker when the only reason is that the remote project has a redirect? Checkbox, Confirm button - easy peasey?

T314417 doesn't seem to solve this issue. For example, try editing Wikidata's [[Q15665435]] to link enwp's [[Orconectes bisectus]] redirect. "Publish" is greyed out, because the enwp page is a redirect. Please, all you have to do is follow consensus by not disabling the publish button.

T314417 hasn’t been deployed to production yet. When it’s ready for deployment, we’ll definitely make some kind of announcement.

Edit: an announcement about the Test Wikidata version of this feature has been sent.

Manuel claimed this task.
Manuel added a subscriber: Manuel.

It was just announced that this much-requested feature is now available on Wikidata.

Thank you for you patience and support!

Well, @Manuel, something is wrong. It does not work. Are you sure it should be in recent changes, and not in later this week, for example? @Xaosflux, @Quiddity.

It works for me, but the publish button was greyed out until I clicked on the rosette(?) icon to the right of the title and added a badge for "sitelink to redirect".

To clarify: 1. I made this edit on Wikidata, not on a Wikipedia; 2. "intentional sitelink to redirect" also works and may be a more appropriate badge per https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Help:Badges#List_of_badges.

Weird. I get the regular message "You can't connect to the <original>, because it is already connected."

Well, @Manuel, something is wrong. It does not work. Are you sure it should be in recent changes, and not in later this week, for example? @Xaosflux, @Quiddity.

I put it in the "next" TechNews (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/2022/44) - if this doesn't work, it can be pulled.

Yes, @Certes you are right, one needs to add a badge to mark this an intentional redirect. I should have been more specific about the exact implementation of this. Thank you for explaining this!

@IKhitron: You are right about the old error message. There is still one task open about this (T320490) as we would like to link to the new guidelines around this (after they are updated).

You can find out more about the exact implementation here: T278962

@IKhitron: You are right about the old error message. There is still one task open about this (T320490) as we would like to link to the new guidelines around this (after they are updated).

So when I can link to redirect and it will work, instead of any error message, old or new?

Yes, you can! A sitelink to a redirect can now be added to an Item. But only if a redirect badge (sitelink to redirect Q70893996 / intentional sitelink to redirect Q70894304) is added in the same edit.

Yes, you can! A sitelink to a redirect can now be added to an Item. But only if a redirect badge (sitelink to redirect Q70893996 / intentional sitelink to redirect Q70894304) is added in the same edit.

Could you give a simple instruction, please. I tried now to do something stupid, just to test and revert myself.

  1. Open [[en:Sir James Cotter, 2nd Baronet]].
  2. Click on "Add interlanguage links".
  3. Dialog popup appears.
  4. No badges there.
  5. Insert other wiki name and random redirect there.
  6. Get an error message.

Could you give a simple instruction, please.

Sure thing!

Step-by-step guide for creating a sitelink to a redirect:

  1. Open the Wikidata Item (e.g. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q75634570)
  2. Look for the "Wikipedia" section (you can usually find it on the right or the very bottom).
  3. Click "edit" and add a Wikipedia page or redirect.
  4. Add a redirect badge (see screenshot). -- This step is needed only if you are adding a redirect.
  5. Click "publish".

Screenshot:

grafik.png (462×463 px, 31 KB)

Community guidelines:

This step-by-step guide only represents the technical side of the new functionality (more details about the implementation can be found here: T278962). Community guidelines are about technical and non technical aspects of the new functionality are still needed (e.g. When is it ok to add a redirect? What badge should I use?). As soon as there are community guidelines we will use them to improve the functionality (e.g. add them to some error messages and use it in our communication).

I see, @Manuel. So, it's important to know that there is a need to create a new item, if missing. Thanks a lot!

Sure thing!

  1. Open the Wikidata Item (https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q75634570)
  2. Look for the "Wikipedia" section (you can usually find it on the right or the very bottom).
  3. Click "edit" and add a Wikipedia page or redirect.
  4. Add a redirect badge (see screenshot). -- This step is needed only if you are adding a redirect.
  5. Click "publish".

Screenshot

What is the different between 'sitelink to redirect' and 'intentional sitelink to redirect'?

What is the different between 'sitelink to redirect' and 'intentional sitelink to redirect'?

There are only some kinds of redirects are useful for Wikidata. Only these should be labeled with 'intentional sitelink to redirect'. I do not know yet, what the new guidelines will be, but I am sure that the community will soon update Wikidata's help pages to include the new badges system and how to use it.

I'm just wondering - if the system is checking and knows that the link is to a redirect already, is there a way to highlight or auto-select the sitelink to redirect options?

Re: Tech News - I've bumped the entry to the following week's edition (to be sent on November 7), in case that gives more time for clarity / documentation / etc.
In particular, it would be great to have a link to some translatable onwiki documentation. Please edit that entry, or let me know, if such becomes available. (Or if that isn't feasible / done in time, maybe just adding some screenshots in the Description above, would be sufficient for many non-English-readers to understand the general workflow? But onwiki docs would be best!)

Thanks to @MisterSynergy and @ChristianKl there is now a draft for new Wikidata:Sitelinks to redirects guidelines! \o/

it would be great to have a link to some translatable onwiki documentation

I have updated the Tech News #46 text accordingly.

Thanks to @MisterSynergy and @ChristianKl there is now a draft for new Wikidata:Sitelinks to redirects guidelines! \o/

  1. Please add something like F35649625 to that help page, for 99% of users that does not know what the hell is badge.
  2. Is there a way to make this page translatable?

Thank you.

@IKhitron For (1), I think the existing image in that page, and the link within the text to Help:Badges, might be enough? If not, then it's probably best to re-ask on the talkpage there.
For (2) I've asked at the talkpage if it's ready.

@IKhitron For (1), I think the existing image in that page, and the link within the text to Help:Badges, might be enough? If not, then it's probably best to re-ask on the talkpage there.
For (2) I've asked at the talkpage if it's ready.

(1) Not sure, but it's your call.
(2) Thanks.